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Rank #2791 on Subscribers
Level 312 Comments: Wizard
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buzz killington here
Everyone goes to heaven, unless it is their explicit wish not to.
according to christian theology God offers everyone a chance to repent and accept him as their father and lord, no matter how long it takes for you to decide. For you to go to hell you must actively deny him, in the sense that you do not want to go to heaven, ever. This situation exists, because God has given Man free-will and who is he to deny you that?
Whether you end up in Heaven or Hell is completely up to you.
So you can fuck up all you want here and you'll still get into heaven if you say "sorry daddy"?
if you mean it, yes.
Oh, i knew there was a catch
it's more like this
>be heathen and sinner all life
>get to heaven
God : "hi, son, I heard you done some fucked up shit"
Guy : "yes"
God : "Wanna come to heaven?"
Guy : "you sure I deserve this?"
God : "and that question right there shows you do, come on in kiddo"
Guy : "hey thanks man, I appreciate it."
for you to get to Hell it would require the following scenario
God : "so you wanna come to heaven?"
Guy : "nah i'm good"
God : "you sure?"
Guy : "yeh"
God : "like, really really sure?"
Guy : "send me to hell fam, I ain't about your shit."
God : "well if that makes you happy...."
Guy : "It do fam, now send me down dere"
God : "very well, son"
and any scenario that isn't a clear answer is basically just God waiting for you to give him one
Thanks for giving me the correct answer. Gotta remember it for when I die
"And all those whose names were not written in the book of Life were cast into the lake of fire"
Then get your name written boy:
One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, “Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!” But the other answered, and rebuking him said, “Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!” And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”
My point was that Bible doesn't teach that you are automatically headed to heaven.
In fact, it teaches that man was born in a sinful nature because of Adam's sin, it's an opt in situation, not an opt out.
It teaches you have to call on the name of the Lord to be saved or you go to a place that is described as everlasting torment.
Of course Jesus himself said to be saved you had to keep the commandments.
Other passages say faith alone will save you
Some passages say works are necessary because faith without works is dead
Others still say faith and baptism are necessary
Paul said to "work out your own salvation"
Jesus told a rich man that to be saved he had to give all his possessions to the poor
I guess that's why one holy book spawned a couple thousand often-contradictory religions.
>it's an opt in situation, not an opt out.
That is true. Though it's not
difficult in any way shape or form, besides the mental block of admitting you need to be saved of course.
>Jesus himself said to be saved you had to keep the commandments
He said that anyone who wishes
to save himself
or to be
would have to keep the commandments (i.e. not Sin), but being saved by Jesus, instead of your own actions, does not require that.
>Some passages say works are necessary because faith without works is dead
It doesn't say works are needed, only that they are the result of faith. Basically, the "where there is smoke there is fire" saying, but in reverse "if there is no smoke, there is no fire".
>Jesus told a rich man that to be saved he had to give all his possessions to the poor
Again, the man asked what
had to do, trying to rely on his own ability, instead of relying on Jesus' sacrifice.
The rest I don't remember being in
any ordinary version of
the Bible, so you'd have to give me the chapter, verse and bible version of those.
Anyway, yeah, the Bible says a lot of the same things, but in slightly different ways, so of course people will take those as saying different things entirely instead if they don't know them all. That's how Christianity has gotten so many different denominations in the first place.
Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling Philippians 2:12
As far as passages claiming the baptism is necessary for salvation 1 Peter 3:21, "Baptism . . . now saves you," and Mark 16:16, "The one who believes AND is baptized will be saved"
As far as Jesus splitting hairs with the man who says Rabbi what must I do to be saved and he responded by saying that he had to obey the Commandments and give away his possessions because he said what must "I" do to be saved I just don't buy, that just seems like a lazy apologist ad hoc rationalization because Jesus had no trouble telling people in other books what they had to do to be saved was to call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, he could have told the man that just as easily, but in that particular book there was an emphasis on the law of Moses being preserved, the writer even wrote down Jesus saying that he did not come to abolish the law.
12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13
for it is God who works in you
to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.
In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.
It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22 who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.
16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Verses, chapters and the big bold titles for different topics are separations we've added to the Bible, you probably want the whole sentence/paragraph before analyzing it.
True enough the Bible is so big and contains thoughts on so many different things that it's possible to backup nearly any belief using certain passages, but it seems to me that if I were a being who wanted to communicate with a people an action they had to take to avoid going to a place where there was weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth where the worm dieth not I would never, ever and trust that message to be written down by fallible humans in languages that would evolve and die out and be translated by fallible humans and then interpreted and reinterpreted how to avoid this place, many of these people starting cults that contradicting each other, and an even larger section of people that don't buy into it at all, going so far as to even believe other holy texts that are at odds with the 'true' one.
The fact that it seems unintuitive certainly isn't proof that it is untrue but it must raise questions as to whether or not it was divinely inspired by a perfect being who would necessarily have much better ways of communicating the most important fact ever conceived.
Furthermore if the Bible is correct then the god described within it has no problem communicating with people, revealing himself to people, having people lay eyes directly on him, and even controlling people's minds. So why would this being entrust such an inconceivably important message to a book that the vast majority of people don't believe a fact that this God would have known as he was inspiring people to write it.
I feel like I should quantify I don't mean any of this to be confrontational or aggressive, religion and theology is just one of my favorite topics of conversation, I was raised in a cult for 24 years in which I was forced to memorize vast quantities of the Bible and be able to quote it without looking at it, (I realized other day I can still quote the entire book of Philippians with only minor errors)
No, that's definitely a valid point.
But you also have to remember that:
1. Free will is a huge part of it. Having a bolt of lightning strike down in front of a person every time they are about to sin is not conducive to a loving relationship
2. God isn't the only player in the game, so to speak. While God's goal would be to have as many people come to have faith in Jesus and and be saved as possible, without overriding free will and turning us into Yes Man robots, Lucifer/Satan/the Devil's goal is to get as many people to
believe as possible.
And the easiest way to get someone to believe a lie is to have it be
true. So, you take this Bible thing...and just tweak parts of it. Not a lot, just a word here or there. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was "a" God." and suddenly you have the Jehovah's Witnesses teaching that there is a whole pantheon of gods, you just have to be good enough to earn your godhood.
Or "On this rock I build my Church" referring to Peter instead of the words being discussed, and suddenly you have any old person being infallible as long as they get elected by a bunch of sinful Humans and sit on a chair, telling people they should give money to the Church to earn the way to Heaven.
"Did God really say...?" Is quite literally the oldest trick in the book.
You bringing up both Free Will and Satan is quite interesting, because Satan has complete knowledge of God's existence and 100% awareness of exactly how powerful God is and yet he still, according to the story, retained the free will to reject him, so that means that God intervening does not negate Free Will.
And again, the God as described in the Bible had literally no problem intervening in people's lives and controlling their minds and their thoughts and forcing them to think of certain things and disallowing them to make certain actions, so this Yahweh character has no problem doing these things and, as Lucifer demonstrates, even if he did it does not affect our ability to reject him.
And if it really is a contest against Yahweh and Lucifer for The Souls of men then Yahweh must be hilariously underpowered compared to Satan considering that the vast majority of humanity does not/has not believed this narrative that you must call upon the name of the Lord be saved.
According to the book of Job Satan can't do a single thing without God's specific permission so again it falls to the fault of the god character that Satan wins any and every time that he wins.
As you said:
Power and ability to negate free will =/= actual negation of free will
>According to the book of Job Satan can't do a single thing without God's specific permission so again it falls to the fault of the god character that Satan wins any and every time that he wins.
"No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it."
In the same way:
A parent puts a plate of cookies on the table to let them cool down and tells their child "don't eat the cookies". The child
for the sake of the metaphor, understands what is being said, isn't starving to death, etc
has the choice to obey or not.
However, if the child, rather than listening, takes a cookie and burns their mouth. It would still be a fault of their own actions, rather than trying to shift the blame to the parent, because they didn't put the plate of cookies up on a shelf or tie the kid to a chair until the cookies cooled down.
It is a matter of the method of assigning fault.
For the analogy to work the parent has to throw the kid in the oven for disobeying and eating the cookie, that doesn't mean that the God doesn't exist but it does mean that the God who takes that action is not benevolent.
None of which has anything to do with the fact that you said that if God intervenes then it negates Free Will, according to the Bible it does not.
The burning of their mouth is the "punishment". Hell is literally being separated from God.
Have you ever heard the phrase "I'd die without you!" referring to the emotional pain of being separated from someone you love? Have you heard of those that die days after losing their loved ones, as their bodies shut down from the emotional stress, causing physical symptoms of their sorrow and emotional pain?
Now imagine that, but on a spiritual level. Being separated from the being that created you by giving you a part of Himself. It would literally be eternal death.
As for the free will part mentioned up in >>
, that was a bit of miswording on my part.
I wasn't trying to say that having a physical manifestation of God around would automatically take away a person's free will. I was trying to get across that if you want to have a loving relationship with a person, constantly and universally threatening the person to do what you say, "or else!" (which is different than warning of consequences, as one still allows you to perform the action, whereas the other prevents you from doing it in the first place) would not fit the goal of a loving relationship, but an abusive, controlling one.
inb4 Sodom and Gomorrah, Jericho, Jonah, Elijah, 1&2 Kings type events: As far as I remember, since I don't have the Bible memorized, all death dealing Divine Interventions (tm)(c) were done
warnings/prophets were sent and also had ways out of them.
The Bible describes hell as being a place of everlasting torment, a lake of fire, a place of weeping wailing and gnashing of teeth, Not Mere separation from God,
as for God wanting to have a relationship with us but also wanting us to have faith, well that's just not how relationships work. If you want to have a relationship with someone the first thing you do is introduce yourself to them, not hide for them hoping they believe something someone said that someone saw and believe you exist and then begin worshiping you, that's not how relationships work
There exist no scripture that make any reference to the fact that Sodom and Gomorrah were warned, in fact, the destruction of Gomorrah seems to be collateral damage for the destruction of Sodom. God even told Abraham that he was unaware of what was going on to the city and had to send his angels merely to find out.
>Mere separation from God
"Have you heard of those that die days after losing their loved ones, as their bodies shut down from the emotional stress, causing physical symptoms of their sorrow and emotional pain?"
I'm going to guess the answer is no, or you are willfully misinterpreting/ignoring that.
>If you want to have a relationship with someone the first thing you do is introduce yourself to them, not hide for them hoping they believe something someone said that someone saw and believe you exist and then begin worshiping you, that's not how relationships work
Even ignoring the whole "God was with them and dwelt among them", Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth, all the modern miracles that are dismissed as lies/hallucinations...
Long distance relationships are a thing. Even before the Internet, Pen Pals have been a thing for millenia. Japan had an entire culture based around communicating through letters and poetry before ever meeting the person you were talking to. Not to mention that a relationship without trust/faith is doomed to fail.
Burning in everlasting torment is not the same as dying soon after a loved one dies
God's existence is a lot more questionable than someone who writes you a letter
you glossed right over the whole "Sodom and Gomorrah were warned" response.
The simple fact is if this God wants a relationship with me he knows exactly what it would take to convince me of his existence and either
1. he does not want me to know
2. he doesn't exist
>Burning in everlasting torment is not the same as dying soon after a loved one dies
That is correct. It was an analogy. Thus "Now imagine that, but on a spiritual level. Being separated from the being that created you by giving you a part of Himself."
>God's existence is a lot more questionable than someone who writes you a letter
Only if you choose to interpret the evidence that way. How do you know the letter is written by who the person says they are? How do you know they aren't being forced to write it? How do you know it's not being printed by a computer? How do you know your eyes aren't lying to you when you "look" at the world and your brain interprets the signals it receives? How do you even know that the information on how your brain works is correct, if you can only examine it through senses interpreted by your brain?
You can be obtuse about anything that way.
>you glossed right over the whole "Sodom and Gomorrah were warned" response.
That's my bad, I thought I typed it out, but apparently I did not:
"When the men got up to leave, they looked down toward Sodom, and Abraham walked along with them to see them on their way. 17 Then the Lord said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do?""
How would you interpret "What I am about to do" if not as "the actions I know I will take". Not only that, but He is asking this in the presence of Abraham and the two angels who had given Him the news of his son, indicating it is a rhetorical question.
Then Abraham begs for the sake of the righteous that may or may not be in the city.
Take careful note here though! Never was it stated that God would destroy the city and any righteous in it, regardless. It was only that Abraham assumed he might and wanted prevent what he was imagining in his own head.
Then the two angels who had told Abraham of his coming child went down to the city, meeting Lot and his family.
But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house. He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate. 4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.”
6 Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him 7 and said, “No, my friends. Don’t do this wicked thing. 8 Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don’t do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof.”
9 “Get out of our way,” they replied. “This fellow came here as a foreigner, and now he wants to play the judge! We’ll treat you worse than them.”
Here is where the people of the town (Sodom and Gomorrah were only 5 miles apart, not really two separate cities, more like different districts of the same place, it is even referred to as a single place by everyone talking about it) were given the chance to turn away from their behavior. Again, take careful note that Lot's actions/offers with his daughters are not endorsed, as some try to claim.
And another warning: "So Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law, who were pledged to marry his daughters. He said, “Hurry and get out of this place, because the Lord is about to destroy the city!” But his sons-in-law thought he was joking."
>The simple fact is if this God wants a relationship with me he knows exactly what it would take to convince me of his existence and either
1. he does not want me to know
2. he doesn't exist
And yet here I am trying to convince you and you deny it. Don't blame the messenger for not opening the door.
It was a terrible analogy,
Sodom was never warned,
an all-knowing being failing to convince someone is a failure on the part of the all-knowing being
If someone told you that Allah wants to have a relationship with you and I'll try to convince you of his existence but if you don't believe it then it's your fault you would not accept that, likewise I don't accept it if you.
well there's a fuckton of text referencing this status, but the biggest that I remember is
just the entire chapter
I mean shit dude gotta keep up that affirmative action
> not watching the hit movie “All Nogs Go To Heaven”
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I could do all the chemistry related things, but the zoology stuff was too much.
Formulas I can use and math isn't a problem, but I can't memorize 50-75 different microbes and identify them by their looks.
I was an economics student.
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