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Rank #2418 on CommentsLevel 247 Comments: Doinitrite
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latest user's comments
|#19 - CB's DepLoader was unable to download required library MrTJPCo… [+] (2 new replies)||07/31/2015 on whatchu know bout splashes||0|
|#22 - a necessary evil/ the lesser of two evils [+] (1 new reply)||07/31/2015 on lianz||+1|
|#20 - That was very informative. thank you [+] (4 new replies)||07/31/2015 on lianz||+1|
|#18 - hunting lions is cowardly. It's done only for sport. those … [+] (16 new replies)||07/31/2015 on lianz||+31|
#19 - icedmantwo (07/31/2015) [-]
The issue is conservation. If people are doing it legally, they are paying $40000+ USD to kill the lion. That money goes into the local economy, and into conservation and anti poaching efforts. Without the legal hunting of lions, there won't be any funding for conservation, or for anti poaching teams. It also means that the only thing the lions contribute to the local community is the death of kids and livestock. These 2 things combined mean that the lions either get run out of the area or killed off very quickly, and this is on top of the fact that the lions that are hunted are supposed to the only the old lions who can't reproduce anymore, or are a danger to other lions.
#32 - unhealthy (07/31/2015) [-]
TL;DR: no, fucking no. Lion hunting is not about conservation, it's a business.
1. The money does NOT go into conservation
2. Even if I'm wrong and it does, that's the worst way you could possibly fund your park
3. There are lion farms that breed lions for the sole purpose of hunting
4. Lion hunting is not a conservation effort but a lucrative business; South Africa tried to make it illegal in 2010, but those lion farmers lobbied/corrupted them out of it
5. The benefits range from negligible, to null, to actually negative
6. On a less tangible base, I will say that it's extremely unethical and hypocritical. We're talking about pleasure to kill here.
And in this particular case:
1. The guides that the hunter hired have been convicted for poaching before
2. In fact, even the hunter himself was convicted for poaching a bear in 2008!
3. They baited the lion out of its park so that they could shoot it, which is extremely illegal
4. They shot it with an arrow, and it took him 40 hours to die.
5. They found his collar, realized it was a protected individual, and tried to conceal it
Since the conservation argument is invalid, I don't see any arguments left in favour of lion hunting.
#36 - icedmantwo (07/31/2015) [-]
Legal hunting does fund the conservation effort, usually far more than donations, and those are the only 2 sources of income for the efforts, considering most African countries are both extremely poor and corrupt. Without legal lion hunting, lions will go extinct. Please reread my post until you understand that. Also note that I wasn't defending this particular case, which was illegal, though it was because of the actions of the guides not the hunter himself. The hunter thought it was a legitimate hunt, and only found out it wasn't after the fact. Also as far as what the hunter wants to hunt, vs what he/she actually hunts, they (when done legally) will only be killing sterile males or males that are actively killing the cubs of other lions. You anger over this is because you simply don't understand that hunting funds conservation efforts worldwide and without hunting there would be significantly more issues with animals dying out or overbreeding.
#39 - unhealthy (07/31/2015) [-]
You would love to just dismiss my arguments as ignorant sentimental rambling, wouldn't you? Sorry, but I've actually spent time looking into this since 2013, and what I'm writing is the synthesis of what I've read and watched on the subject.
I'll redirect you to point 1 and 2 of my list: I've read more claims that the hunt does not fund conservation, and from more reputable sources. There are people making big money from it, and they don't give two shits about their lions.
Even if hunting did/does bring money, there's still the huge ethical problem that it poses; I admit morals aren't a very solid base to build your argument on, but it's still a real one and it can't be disregarded. Lion hunting may be legal, but it shouldn't be; our hunter may have done his best to hunt legally, but he shouldn't have been hunting in the first place. Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's good - segregation was legal, and that doesn't make it acceptable. again, I admit it's hard to judge someone based on ethics
Now I don't know if you're also well informed on the subject, but if you are, I suggest you look into the opposite side - you get biased very easily when you only listen to one side of the argument. Unfortunately I didn't have the presence of mind to bookmark good readings on the subject, but I do suggest you have a look at this: www.jvbigcats.co.za/newsletters84.htm
#73 - icedmantwo (07/31/2015) [-]
The first line of the second paragraph is "I have always been against hunting for moral and ethical and ecological reasons" so I'm not even going to bother reading it. Regardless of various people's ethics, morals, and feels, hunting is, in fact, basically the only reason that there is a much animal life in North America, Africa, and certain regions of Asia as there is. You notice Europe doesn't have to much space in the way of nature preserves, not like the other continents do, and it's because it never had the hunting culture that any other the other continents developed, particularly after North America. Regardless of how you feel about hunting, I'm more of a hunt for meat only person myself, hunters spend their time and money taking care of the land that they hunt on, and work hard to ensure they will have future hunts. This is a goal that coincides with maintaining a balanced ecosystem, where all species survive.
#76 - unhealthy (16 hours ago) [-]
I didn't link that text by accident: it presents information and numbers that I find very important, and I'm sad that you chose to ignore it. See, this is how you build a bias.
Europe doesn't have many reserves because it's a dense continent, and there has been large deforestation in the past centuries. By the way, do you know what happened to most of the european predators? They were HUNTED to extinction. All or most bears, lynxes and wolves were purposefully exterminated long before their forests were cut down.
Theoretically, hunting could be made to _ kind of_ help conservation, but that isn't the case anywhere I know of and certainly not in Africa: the hunting business I insist on calling it a business has done nothing but degrade the image of Africa and bring money to lion farmers. Shall we get into that part, lion farming?
#74 - icedmantwo (07/31/2015) [-]
Also here's a source on my info.
#77 - unhealthy (15 hours ago) [-]
This article brings up itself many of the arguments I would have made, like how it's unreliable to ask the hunters themselves if they want to help conservation, the disastrous message that hunting conveys, and also the ideology behind it that animals are inferior to and at the disposition of humans ; I'll add some points that aren't presented:
-The same results could have been achieved with other much better conservation policies; for a government trying to save a species, hunting is the lazy, cheaper and least effective method.
I realize that African governments may not have a lot of money to spend on better conservation, but maybe if the local dictators stopped hogging all they countries' resources there would be a little more of it.
-Wild animals don't naturally live old enough to be infertile and need to be removed
-I actually don't know of any circumstance where an animal would need to be hunted, other than if it's mortally wounded
-When a population is already low, hunting more of them -legally or not- can't possibly be a good idea
-As for the claim that money from hunting goes into conservation, it simply goes directly against other things that I've read, I don't really know what to answer to that.
A few good points are made in the comments section of that article, if you're willing to read through that much anger.
I think we pretty much said everything there was to say, didn't we? Overall, everything I could gather on the subject amounts to a mountain of problems raised by hunting, and very few solutions or positive effects - I found the arguments in favour to be mostly disprovable. Naturally I can be wrong because I'm just a human, with a limited and problematic access to information, but to the best of my information-seeking abilities, the evidence piles up against hunting. And then there's also the emotional aspect, which of course I do my best to leave aside, but shit happens.
Thanks for making this interesting
#44 - unhealthy (07/31/2015) [-]
No, and I see where you're going with this. There's a major difference between hunting an endangered species and raising cows to be eaten: cows aren't an endangered species. We raise them with the specific purpose to eat them. I don't see a problem with that, as long as they are raised in decent conditions - but we're getting off track now.
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