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wertologist

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Wertologist or Wert107

latest user's comments

#117 - Never seen Despicable Me and because of how they try to shove …  [+] (2 new replies) 07/18/2015 on K I L L M E 0
User avatar #148 - icametocomment (07/18/2015) [-]
Despicable Me was actually a really good movie. The second was okay, and I'm not even going to bother with the actual Minions movie.
User avatar #140 - demandsgayversion (07/18/2015) [-]
It was funny in Despicable Me. Great movie. But Gundam Style and What does the Fox Say were funny the first time seeing them, too. It's always good stuff that gets rammed into the ground.
#37489 - The first thing I tried was Adwcleaner, but it didn't get all …  [+] (2 new replies) 07/18/2015 on Technology Board 0
User avatar #37490 - sannukas (07/18/2015) [-]
Yes, both have a free version. Try them both but not at the same time.
User avatar #37501 - wertologist (07/18/2015) [-]
Thank you. Malwarebytes seems to have gotten rid of it. It's a relief to know that I won't get forced out of my games anymore.
#37487 - Tried to manually uninstall the listed programs, but they were…  [+] (4 new replies) 07/18/2015 on Technology Board 0
User avatar #37488 - sannukas (07/18/2015) [-]
Did you try all the programs? AdwCleaner, Malwarebytes, HitmanPro.
User avatar #37489 - wertologist (07/18/2015) [-]
The first thing I tried was Adwcleaner, but it didn't get all the files evidently. Are Malwarebytes and HitmanPro free? Which one works better? I'd rather not have to get both of them due to how many different adware removers I've tried in the past 24 hours.
User avatar #37490 - sannukas (07/18/2015) [-]
Yes, both have a free version. Try them both but not at the same time.
User avatar #37501 - wertologist (07/18/2015) [-]
Thank you. Malwarebytes seems to have gotten rid of it. It's a relief to know that I won't get forced out of my games anymore.
#37485 - Can someone please help me out? I have some kind of malware on…  [+] (6 new replies) 07/18/2015 on Technology Board 0
User avatar #37487 - wertologist (07/18/2015) [-]
Tried to manually uninstall the listed programs, but they were already uninstalled. Downloaded the program it suggested and it's just a new way of uninstalling programs which still the files didn't show up.

Any other ideas?
User avatar #37488 - sannukas (07/18/2015) [-]
Did you try all the programs? AdwCleaner, Malwarebytes, HitmanPro.
User avatar #37489 - wertologist (07/18/2015) [-]
The first thing I tried was Adwcleaner, but it didn't get all the files evidently. Are Malwarebytes and HitmanPro free? Which one works better? I'd rather not have to get both of them due to how many different adware removers I've tried in the past 24 hours.
User avatar #37490 - sannukas (07/18/2015) [-]
Yes, both have a free version. Try them both but not at the same time.
User avatar #37501 - wertologist (07/18/2015) [-]
Thank you. Malwarebytes seems to have gotten rid of it. It's a relief to know that I won't get forced out of my games anymore.
#5 - I don't think you understand how saiyans are. They live for ba… 07/18/2015 on Vegeta isn't that great +1
#24 - Yes, she grew up to be Azula, then traveled back in time to an…  [+] (3 new replies) 07/17/2015 on Azula +21
User avatar #41 - handsomestalin (07/17/2015) [-]
But it's so awkward though
User avatar #56 - theugandanhero (07/17/2015) [-]
What's awkward about that?
User avatar #35 - theshinypen (07/17/2015) [-]
Those medallions are pretty sweet.
#3 - I don't think this is them bowing their heads. They are trying… 07/14/2015 on Enraged 0
#18 - Picture 07/14/2015 on When NSFW is too much for you +5
#125 - Anyone got a link? Not a picture of link or some bad pun … 07/13/2015 on Legend Of Zelda Modern Warfare 0
#202 - You seem to forget DBZ has inconsistencies and plot errors. I'…  [+] (2 new replies) 07/12/2015 on DBZ Kill Count 0
#203 - dontread (07/13/2015) [-]
the anime does seen inconsistent because of filler. The characters have always shown they were stronger than Frieza but only the Namekian and saiyan characters...

The anime shows Krillin getting stomped by 20 but then suddenly Krillin can toss Imperfect Cell around for a bit. What?
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You're right. They were Abo and Cado were BOTH equal to Frieza, not each.
If Abo or Cado ever fought tarble then Tarble probably never would of lived to tell the tale anyway so i highly doubt they ever fought.

Only some of the Z fighters even knew what Frieza's real strength was in the first place.
Krillin, Gohan, Vegeta, Piccolo, and Goku. That's it.

Mecha Frieza was quite a bit stronger than flesh Frieza and is considered a different "Frieza" entirely since he got powered up.

That's entirely False regarding the power hiding thing u said. Most of Frieza's army don't know how to COMPLETELY hide their powerlevels. They can still powerup themselves and get stronger just like every fighter in the series has shown.

Frieza is a prime example of this since he was going from 1 pct to 100 pct throughout the Goku fight in his final form.
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Super Buu is around the same strength as SS3 Gotenks. They were straight up having trouble with him and it was a good back and forth fight. At the end of the day they NEEDED SS3 while fused to even compete with Buu. It wasn't about showing off towards the end of that fight. Showing off in the beginning of that fight is what made Gotenks lose though since he wasted time.
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Even if they were stronger grunts, a grunt going from 100 to 150 doesn't mean much to people of Goku's levels at that point in the movie. Dude they straight up brought that SPECIFIC point of Goku being carless in the movie. Goku's new trainer, Whis, specifically told Goku he was too careless in his fights and it'd be the death of him someday.
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Yes Bills could of Destroyed Goku in God form right from the start. Bills already told Goku he wasn't even using his real power while Goku was only using 80 pct. (That's still quite a lot)

Beerus tried harder, but he never said he was going all out either.

BUT, at the end of the day, Beerus was looking for a FIGHT. Not a Kill. He let Goku go/live numerous times during that fight and only tried to kill him after he felt Goku showed him all he could.

We even have Akira Toiriyama rank the fighters. ==> "I suppose if Beerus’ strength is a 10, [Super Saiyan] God would be right about 6. Only, Saiyans rapidly increase in strength as they fight against strong opponents, so the longer they fought, the more that gap would shrink, and it might even be possible for them to eventually turn the tables. Incidentally, I guess Whis would be about a 15" - Akira Toriyama

source: www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/battle-gods-animanga-akira-toriyama/

Goku still needs to go through more training with Whis before he can close the gap. At that point in the movie Goku was only slightly higher than half of Bills power by word of the author himself.
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"I fought against a Super Saiyan God who looked just like THIS ONE" -Beerus
(talking about Goku on the screen)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=2k0P8nTro1c
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It's quite obvious why anybody would hold back. There no need to do more otherwise Buu could of just blown up the planet to kill Gohan. Why don't u make a case on that because it's a perfect valid and sure way to kill his enemies considering his regeneration powers?

Hell, kid buu did it and killed Mystic Gohan , Piccolo, and Gotenks (trunks and goten).
Also, the difference is that Kidd Buu is rage incarnate and Super Gotenks Buu has Piccolo's intelligence and modesty canceling out Gotenks hot headness.

It's called personality traits bro.
#204 - dontread (07/13/2015) [-]
He was still terrified of Dabura even after he found out how strong all the Z fighters were.

Supreme Kai straight up thought Gohan was the only one who was a match for Dabura until Vegeta went Majin and proved otherwise.
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Pui Pui? the master of a ten times gravity planet?
The Saiyans grew up in a high gravity planet too and most of them were weaklings.

Was Pui Pui as strong as Frieza? When did they state this?
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Goku went super saiyan with 40 tons on each limb... Initially it was going to be 10, but then the west guy decided 40 tons and King Kai just told him to do it.

Chapter 429 page 9ish..
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#198 - Beerus knew he could destroy Goku, but chose to talk to him in…  [+] (6 new replies) 07/12/2015 on DBZ Kill Count 0
#200 - dontread (07/12/2015) [-]
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The more likely scenario is that only while fused does AboCado's power compare to Frieza.

Why else would Goten and Trunks need to fuse? Sure you could argue they did it to show off fusion too, but that's incredibly overkill if you're right.. AboCado (fused) still managed to give base Gotenks some kind of resistance in the end.

Also to debunk your Krillin Theory. In the Revival of F movie when Krillin found out Frieza was back in town his initial response was that he was glad that Gohan was still on Earth.

He wasn't even confident at all that he could beat final form Frieza that far into the future in Revival of F when he was probably stronger!
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Akira never made any specific comment towards Tien not being human. Tien is just part of a special clan. He got his 3rd eye through meditation.

in the manga Tien didn't have as many training montages as they showed in the anime.

In the anime they made it seem like he trained with King Kai and all this other stuff which was all filler. He never fought the Ginyu force and he was pretty much Saiyan Saga level after getting revived after the Namek Saga. Krillin by then had trained, gotten a powerup from Guru, and trained some more.

Krillin had a HUGE headstart on Tien since the Namek Saga. It's almost unfair that Tien was MIA for an entire saga when everyone powered up so much.
#199 - dontread (07/12/2015) [-]
He went to Goku specifically because Goku was the one he saw in his dream supposedly.

Yeah, but trying to goad Goku into showing him everything he's got the way you described is super inefficient considering all he had to do was ask or order him and he definitely would of got to see it.

Bills was straight up leaving and Goku was the one who asked to show off for him.
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You're correct. Goku had an incredible base form and super form. But so did Frieza (since his base form is technically his "final" form). Goku's super form is so powerful cause it has such high multipliers.

If Goku is 1000, then his super saiyan 3 is 4,000,000. If Goku increases his base form to 1100 then his super saiyan 3 goes to 4,400,000.
Just increasing his base form by 10 pct of his strength in base results in an extra 400,000 battle power.

To this day the battle power increase during the Namek Saga was the most absurd and rapid in all of the series. They straight up went from the single thousands to MILLIONS from the saiyan saga to the frieza saga. (Goku specifically)
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I know the Cell Jr's are strong. They were strong enough to hold off Trunks and Vegeta after their SECOND training session in the HTC.

I think you're getting your information off the anime filler they added in those fights.
In reality Tien never damaged any of them. They just put those fight scenes there to make the scene longer.

Again, that's the problem with filler. It's inconsistent as fuck.
If we go by filler then pre Buu Saga Super Saiyan 1 Goku can go toe to toe with Super Perfect Cell which is an absurd statement.

If we go by filler then Krillin can hold his own with Imperfect Cell...
If we go by filler then Super Saiyan 3 Goku can hold his own with Super Gotenks Buu which, again, is an absurd statement considering both Super Buu and Gotenks are way stronger than Goku by themselves, let alone combined together...
www.dbz-zone.org/dragonball_manga.php
Read dragonball chapter 408 on that site. Or on mangareader.com
Tien IMMEDIATELY gets taken out by Cell Jrs.
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I don't mean to sound like a prick, but if the filler in the manga made sense i wouldn't be so picky about using it. But the filler in the manga rarely makes sense...
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Tien is definitely powerful by normal standards. Deflecting a blast from gotenks buu certainly takes a powerful individual to pull off. Still, Tien in comparison was still not that much in comparison to everyone else, let alone somebody like Frieza.

Gohan was beaten down. He was wasted on energy. In the new revival of F movie we saw GOKU in his most powerful form get taken out by a GRUNT.

A GRUNT. Why? because he was careless. He didn't put up a defense with his ki.
Gohan obviously wasn't careless ( well... not at that moment cause, earlier, not killing Super Buu outright was carless), but he probably was running low on ki at that point in the fight.

That's a good justification for having a weak finishing blow I'd say.
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In Yo Son Goku i need you to remember something dude. That statement came from a person who needed a scouter to rely on powerl evels. He also got all his information off of Namekians. Namekians who never even saw or felt Frieza's final form's powerlevel.

Not only that, Vegeta during the Namek Saga had a good "idea" on how strong Frieza was.
Vegeta was completely wrong at the end of the day. Vegeta's brother probably only had 1st form Frieza to compare with. At the time only certain select few Z fighters even knew what Frieza's power level really was pre-Trunks saga.

Then you have to think of the fact that Goten and Trunks need Super Saiyan forms to even compete with a non-serious 18. There's no way in their base they're near Frieza's powerlevel at all. They'd be monsters with that 50x multiplier.
#201 - dontread (07/12/2015) [-]
Added in an extra 0 for some reason.

It's 1000 ---> 400,000
and 1100 ---> 440,000

40,000 extra. from 100 more on his base.
User avatar #202 - wertologist (07/12/2015) [-]
You seem to forget DBZ has inconsistencies and plot errors. I'm just going with what makes sense. The characters have shown they are stronger than Frieza.

It doesn't matter if Vegeta's brother had wrong information about they're power levels. They all though he meant Frieza's real strength. He also told them that they were both equal to Frieza. He probably didn't even know about their fusion due to them not even needing it to fight him. Also, the z fighters would all be able to sense them as most people don't know how to hide their strength. No one in Frieza's army could hide their power unless their power relied on transformations.

Goten and Trunks fused for the very reason on showing off. That's what they do. While as Gotenks they become incredibly vain and showy. Gotenks could have easily destroyed Super Buu, but chose to pretend like he/they couldn't. That's what they do. Show off. They wanted to fuse to show off and most likely to mimic them for the fun of it. The only time they didn't try to show off was when they fought Beerus because they saw how easily he shoved everyone aside.

All of Frieza's new grunts were far more powerful than they used to be. Goku doesn't just go and be careless in a fight. He lives to fight. He also would have sensed their power levels.

By your logic, Beerus could have also just destroyed Goku while in God form right from the start. Just because he can do something, doesn't mean he will. He could have just demanded all the saiyans on Earth tell him what he wanted, but he chose to just party with them. He didn't exactly dream about Goku. He dreamed about fighting a super saiyan god. He didn't know it was Goku otherwise he would have pursued trying to fight him rather than having to be asked. He could have easily killed Goku at any point, but chose not to and to talk.

When Buu shot a kill shot toward Gohan there is no reason to think it was weak. Buu doesn't really care about holding back. He had the upper hand and thought there was no one left to fight him so why would he hold back? Buu was a monster and monsters don't usually hold back. Look at Kid Buu. He shot a blast that could destroy the Earth ten times. Overkill is what DBZ is all about.

Again, all of the Supreme Kais could kill Frieza in one hit. Supreme Kai was terrified of Dabura and surprised to find out how strong the z fighters were.

Pui Pui was pretty close to how strong Frieza was, but Vegeta defeated him with ease.

Again, you seem to be forgetting how Goku was able to stand/fly with 10 tons on each limb. He probably could have trained with them if he had wanted to, but chose to go super saiyan to make it easier. He would not have been able to do that on Namek otherwise he would have destroyed Frieza with ease. Goku was far stronger than Frieza at that point.
#203 - dontread (07/13/2015) [-]
the anime does seen inconsistent because of filler. The characters have always shown they were stronger than Frieza but only the Namekian and saiyan characters...

The anime shows Krillin getting stomped by 20 but then suddenly Krillin can toss Imperfect Cell around for a bit. What?
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You're right. They were Abo and Cado were BOTH equal to Frieza, not each.
If Abo or Cado ever fought tarble then Tarble probably never would of lived to tell the tale anyway so i highly doubt they ever fought.

Only some of the Z fighters even knew what Frieza's real strength was in the first place.
Krillin, Gohan, Vegeta, Piccolo, and Goku. That's it.

Mecha Frieza was quite a bit stronger than flesh Frieza and is considered a different "Frieza" entirely since he got powered up.

That's entirely False regarding the power hiding thing u said. Most of Frieza's army don't know how to COMPLETELY hide their powerlevels. They can still powerup themselves and get stronger just like every fighter in the series has shown.

Frieza is a prime example of this since he was going from 1 pct to 100 pct throughout the Goku fight in his final form.
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Super Buu is around the same strength as SS3 Gotenks. They were straight up having trouble with him and it was a good back and forth fight. At the end of the day they NEEDED SS3 while fused to even compete with Buu. It wasn't about showing off towards the end of that fight. Showing off in the beginning of that fight is what made Gotenks lose though since he wasted time.
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Even if they were stronger grunts, a grunt going from 100 to 150 doesn't mean much to people of Goku's levels at that point in the movie. Dude they straight up brought that SPECIFIC point of Goku being carless in the movie. Goku's new trainer, Whis, specifically told Goku he was too careless in his fights and it'd be the death of him someday.
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Yes Bills could of Destroyed Goku in God form right from the start. Bills already told Goku he wasn't even using his real power while Goku was only using 80 pct. (That's still quite a lot)

Beerus tried harder, but he never said he was going all out either.

BUT, at the end of the day, Beerus was looking for a FIGHT. Not a Kill. He let Goku go/live numerous times during that fight and only tried to kill him after he felt Goku showed him all he could.

We even have Akira Toiriyama rank the fighters. ==> "I suppose if Beerus’ strength is a 10, [Super Saiyan] God would be right about 6. Only, Saiyans rapidly increase in strength as they fight against strong opponents, so the longer they fought, the more that gap would shrink, and it might even be possible for them to eventually turn the tables. Incidentally, I guess Whis would be about a 15" - Akira Toriyama

source: www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/battle-gods-animanga-akira-toriyama/

Goku still needs to go through more training with Whis before he can close the gap. At that point in the movie Goku was only slightly higher than half of Bills power by word of the author himself.
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"I fought against a Super Saiyan God who looked just like THIS ONE" -Beerus
(talking about Goku on the screen)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=2k0P8nTro1c
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It's quite obvious why anybody would hold back. There no need to do more otherwise Buu could of just blown up the planet to kill Gohan. Why don't u make a case on that because it's a perfect valid and sure way to kill his enemies considering his regeneration powers?

Hell, kid buu did it and killed Mystic Gohan , Piccolo, and Gotenks (trunks and goten).
Also, the difference is that Kidd Buu is rage incarnate and Super Gotenks Buu has Piccolo's intelligence and modesty canceling out Gotenks hot headness.

It's called personality traits bro.
#204 - dontread (07/13/2015) [-]
He was still terrified of Dabura even after he found out how strong all the Z fighters were.

Supreme Kai straight up thought Gohan was the only one who was a match for Dabura until Vegeta went Majin and proved otherwise.
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Pui Pui? the master of a ten times gravity planet?
The Saiyans grew up in a high gravity planet too and most of them were weaklings.

Was Pui Pui as strong as Frieza? When did they state this?
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Goku went super saiyan with 40 tons on each limb... Initially it was going to be 10, but then the west guy decided 40 tons and King Kai just told him to do it.

Chapter 429 page 9ish..
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#196 - Beerus wasn't trying to trick Goku. He was just trying to get …  [+] (8 new replies) 07/11/2015 on DBZ Kill Count 0
#197 - dontread (07/12/2015) [-]
It's not about Goku knowing if he could hurt him or not. Beerus knew he could. So there's no reason to go about it so casually/ talking down to goku. He could of just asked and gotten his answer. That's what he did with everyone else, why is Goku special considering Goku was the one most likely to answer his question in the first place.

Beerus specifically went up to Goku, evaluated him, then told him he didn't believe he could beat Frieza. It's a stretch to say he did all that then, for some reason, talked about Goku's strength from a decade in the past.
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What are you talking about? Frieza at most used 50 pct of his power during the Pre-Super Saiyan part of the fight. He also did that while mopping the floor with Goku. Goku was using a TWENTY TIMES KaoiKen and still couldn't touch Frieza. Goku was fighting at TWENTY TIMES his base form and still getting beat out.
Frieza vastly outmatched Goku.

There's a reason he needed a FIFTY times multiplier from his Super Saiyan form to beat Frieza.
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Goku's base did get stronger. I believe you underestimated how strong Frieza was in comparison to everyone back then. They did improve over the series, but Frieza still had a HUGE gap between them in their base form. He seriously was a monster.
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Yes people can hide their power, but Goku not transforming isn't the same as him hiding his power. His transformations are multipliers not releasers.
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It's well known Tien's Neo Tri Beam has an ENORMOUS multiplier to his attack. Tien had to use his most forbidden and powerful technique just to slightly deflect a blast meant to kill a severely beat down Gohan.

If you don't believe me go look at Tien holding down Semi-Perfect Cell with it. It uses up his life energy that's why it has a high multiplier; it's in exchange for losing part of ur life.

Tien's strong but, at the time, Super Gotenks Buu was dimensions apart in strength from Vegeta and Goku (ss3) even. I doubt Tien was anywhere close. You'd have to make a pretty good case without skewing up proven power rankings.
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Yes Goku and Vegeta were insanely powerful at the time. But they were just SS1 when they deflected Kid Buu's half-hearted blast. We also know it takes a SS3 Goku to put up a fight with Kid Buu so obviously deflecting isn't a good indicator of putting up a fight with the guy who shot the blast since it's hard to prove he was even giving it his all in that attack.
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Again, Tien's attack has a high multiplier in exchange for his life. This is something people have known since Dragonball when Goku was a kid. At the end of the day Semi-Perfect Cell wasn't injured at all and Tien pretty much almost committed suicide to buy, like, 6 seconds for the androids to escape.

I agree, Tien holding his own against Cell Jr's was a good feat. But at the end of the day he did just that; hold his own. The Cell Jrs were waiting on kill orders from Cell anyway so it's arguable they were just killing time with the weak Z fighters until then. The Cell Jrs were strong enough to make Krillin, someone who's supposed to be stronger than Tien by word of Akria Toriyama himself, a hostage against Teen Gohan quite easily.
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Vegata was quite weaker than Goku during the Buu Saga without his Majin Powerup, let alone lack of SS3, and he had an ENORMOUS amount of trouble buying Goku a minute of time against Kid Buu.

Tien almost killed himself to buy people seconds of time to escape...
User avatar #198 - wertologist (07/12/2015) [-]
Beerus knew he could destroy Goku, but chose to talk to him in a friendly manner to get information. He does that on Earth too. He could have easily destroyed everyone on Earth, but chose to be civil and not announce he was a god of destruction. Goku stood out because he was the strongest and he was on a Kai's world. Beerus also went to him because he was told Goku killed Frieza so he wanted to see him in person.

Frieza was stronger than Goku's base form then, but his base form got far stronger as he trained. Having a powerful super form means having a powerful base form.

The Cell Jr.s beat Tien after he managed to actually fight against them. The Cell Jr.s were as strong as Trunks' SS1 form AFTER he got after the Hyperbolic Time Chamber. Before the Cell games, Trunks was significantly weaker, but still managed to absolutely destroy Frieza even though he was said to be stronger than when he fought Goku.

So beefed up super saiyan Trunks(who when weaker decimated Frieza) was on par with the Cell Jrs. Tien was able to fight them. Granted he wasn't as strong as them and they weren't trying to kill them, but he managed to damage them. To say Goku couldn't defeat Frieza is to say he is weaker than Tien.

I'm well aware Vegeta was nowhere near as strong as Goku. I'm also aware he had difficulty fighting Kid Buu. The simple fact that Tien was able to deflect a blast from Buu is enough to show how powerful he is. That blast was meant to kill Gohan so it must have been powerful. Why would Buu shoot a blast at Gohan if it was weak enough for someone weaker than Frieza to deflect/block?

Krillin also agreed to fight Abo and Kado in "Yo! Son Goku And His Friends Return" when he was told they were as strong as Frieza. Goku had no interest in fighing them due to them only being a little stronger than Frieza To also say Goku couldn't beat Frieza in his base form is to say he is also weaker than Krillin. Goku defeats the fused Abo and Cado(Abocado) by going super saiyan, but it is likely he would not have needed to due to how it only took ONE punch. Abocado has the combined strengh of two equally powerful people who were stronger than Frieza. So they were more than twice as strong as Frieza and it only took ONE punch from Super Saiyan Goku. Goku as a super saiyan overpowered Frieza, but still Frieza could take far more than a punch. You even said it yourself. Goku and everyone got far stronger in their base forms. So Goku is far stronger than Frieza.

Akira Toriyama stated that Krillin was the strongest human. He doesn't consider Tien human due to the third eye thing for some reason.

Yo! Son Goku And His Friends Return is considered canon as it is mentioned in Battle of the Gods when Bulma asks about Vegeta's brother.
#200 - dontread (07/12/2015) [-]
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The more likely scenario is that only while fused does AboCado's power compare to Frieza.

Why else would Goten and Trunks need to fuse? Sure you could argue they did it to show off fusion too, but that's incredibly overkill if you're right.. AboCado (fused) still managed to give base Gotenks some kind of resistance in the end.

Also to debunk your Krillin Theory. In the Revival of F movie when Krillin found out Frieza was back in town his initial response was that he was glad that Gohan was still on Earth.

He wasn't even confident at all that he could beat final form Frieza that far into the future in Revival of F when he was probably stronger!
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Akira never made any specific comment towards Tien not being human. Tien is just part of a special clan. He got his 3rd eye through meditation.

in the manga Tien didn't have as many training montages as they showed in the anime.

In the anime they made it seem like he trained with King Kai and all this other stuff which was all filler. He never fought the Ginyu force and he was pretty much Saiyan Saga level after getting revived after the Namek Saga. Krillin by then had trained, gotten a powerup from Guru, and trained some more.

Krillin had a HUGE headstart on Tien since the Namek Saga. It's almost unfair that Tien was MIA for an entire saga when everyone powered up so much.
#199 - dontread (07/12/2015) [-]
He went to Goku specifically because Goku was the one he saw in his dream supposedly.

Yeah, but trying to goad Goku into showing him everything he's got the way you described is super inefficient considering all he had to do was ask or order him and he definitely would of got to see it.

Bills was straight up leaving and Goku was the one who asked to show off for him.
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You're correct. Goku had an incredible base form and super form. But so did Frieza (since his base form is technically his "final" form). Goku's super form is so powerful cause it has such high multipliers.

If Goku is 1000, then his super saiyan 3 is 4,000,000. If Goku increases his base form to 1100 then his super saiyan 3 goes to 4,400,000.
Just increasing his base form by 10 pct of his strength in base results in an extra 400,000 battle power.

To this day the battle power increase during the Namek Saga was the most absurd and rapid in all of the series. They straight up went from the single thousands to MILLIONS from the saiyan saga to the frieza saga. (Goku specifically)
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I know the Cell Jr's are strong. They were strong enough to hold off Trunks and Vegeta after their SECOND training session in the HTC.

I think you're getting your information off the anime filler they added in those fights.
In reality Tien never damaged any of them. They just put those fight scenes there to make the scene longer.

Again, that's the problem with filler. It's inconsistent as fuck.
If we go by filler then pre Buu Saga Super Saiyan 1 Goku can go toe to toe with Super Perfect Cell which is an absurd statement.

If we go by filler then Krillin can hold his own with Imperfect Cell...
If we go by filler then Super Saiyan 3 Goku can hold his own with Super Gotenks Buu which, again, is an absurd statement considering both Super Buu and Gotenks are way stronger than Goku by themselves, let alone combined together...
www.dbz-zone.org/dragonball_manga.php
Read dragonball chapter 408 on that site. Or on mangareader.com
Tien IMMEDIATELY gets taken out by Cell Jrs.
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I don't mean to sound like a prick, but if the filler in the manga made sense i wouldn't be so picky about using it. But the filler in the manga rarely makes sense...
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Tien is definitely powerful by normal standards. Deflecting a blast from gotenks buu certainly takes a powerful individual to pull off. Still, Tien in comparison was still not that much in comparison to everyone else, let alone somebody like Frieza.

Gohan was beaten down. He was wasted on energy. In the new revival of F movie we saw GOKU in his most powerful form get taken out by a GRUNT.

A GRUNT. Why? because he was careless. He didn't put up a defense with his ki.
Gohan obviously wasn't careless ( well... not at that moment cause, earlier, not killing Super Buu outright was carless), but he probably was running low on ki at that point in the fight.

That's a good justification for having a weak finishing blow I'd say.
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In Yo Son Goku i need you to remember something dude. That statement came from a person who needed a scouter to rely on powerl evels. He also got all his information off of Namekians. Namekians who never even saw or felt Frieza's final form's powerlevel.

Not only that, Vegeta during the Namek Saga had a good "idea" on how strong Frieza was.
Vegeta was completely wrong at the end of the day. Vegeta's brother probably only had 1st form Frieza to compare with. At the time only certain select few Z fighters even knew what Frieza's power level really was pre-Trunks saga.

Then you have to think of the fact that Goten and Trunks need Super Saiyan forms to even compete with a non-serious 18. There's no way in their base they're near Frieza's powerlevel at all. They'd be monsters with that 50x multiplier.
#201 - dontread (07/12/2015) [-]
Added in an extra 0 for some reason.

It's 1000 ---> 400,000
and 1100 ---> 440,000

40,000 extra. from 100 more on his base.
User avatar #202 - wertologist (07/12/2015) [-]
You seem to forget DBZ has inconsistencies and plot errors. I'm just going with what makes sense. The characters have shown they are stronger than Frieza.

It doesn't matter if Vegeta's brother had wrong information about they're power levels. They all though he meant Frieza's real strength. He also told them that they were both equal to Frieza. He probably didn't even know about their fusion due to them not even needing it to fight him. Also, the z fighters would all be able to sense them as most people don't know how to hide their strength. No one in Frieza's army could hide their power unless their power relied on transformations.

Goten and Trunks fused for the very reason on showing off. That's what they do. While as Gotenks they become incredibly vain and showy. Gotenks could have easily destroyed Super Buu, but chose to pretend like he/they couldn't. That's what they do. Show off. They wanted to fuse to show off and most likely to mimic them for the fun of it. The only time they didn't try to show off was when they fought Beerus because they saw how easily he shoved everyone aside.

All of Frieza's new grunts were far more powerful than they used to be. Goku doesn't just go and be careless in a fight. He lives to fight. He also would have sensed their power levels.

By your logic, Beerus could have also just destroyed Goku while in God form right from the start. Just because he can do something, doesn't mean he will. He could have just demanded all the saiyans on Earth tell him what he wanted, but he chose to just party with them. He didn't exactly dream about Goku. He dreamed about fighting a super saiyan god. He didn't know it was Goku otherwise he would have pursued trying to fight him rather than having to be asked. He could have easily killed Goku at any point, but chose not to and to talk.

When Buu shot a kill shot toward Gohan there is no reason to think it was weak. Buu doesn't really care about holding back. He had the upper hand and thought there was no one left to fight him so why would he hold back? Buu was a monster and monsters don't usually hold back. Look at Kid Buu. He shot a blast that could destroy the Earth ten times. Overkill is what DBZ is all about.

Again, all of the Supreme Kais could kill Frieza in one hit. Supreme Kai was terrified of Dabura and surprised to find out how strong the z fighters were.

Pui Pui was pretty close to how strong Frieza was, but Vegeta defeated him with ease.

Again, you seem to be forgetting how Goku was able to stand/fly with 10 tons on each limb. He probably could have trained with them if he had wanted to, but chose to go super saiyan to make it easier. He would not have been able to do that on Namek otherwise he would have destroyed Frieza with ease. Goku was far stronger than Frieza at that point.
#203 - dontread (07/13/2015) [-]
the anime does seen inconsistent because of filler. The characters have always shown they were stronger than Frieza but only the Namekian and saiyan characters...

The anime shows Krillin getting stomped by 20 but then suddenly Krillin can toss Imperfect Cell around for a bit. What?
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You're right. They were Abo and Cado were BOTH equal to Frieza, not each.
If Abo or Cado ever fought tarble then Tarble probably never would of lived to tell the tale anyway so i highly doubt they ever fought.

Only some of the Z fighters even knew what Frieza's real strength was in the first place.
Krillin, Gohan, Vegeta, Piccolo, and Goku. That's it.

Mecha Frieza was quite a bit stronger than flesh Frieza and is considered a different "Frieza" entirely since he got powered up.

That's entirely False regarding the power hiding thing u said. Most of Frieza's army don't know how to COMPLETELY hide their powerlevels. They can still powerup themselves and get stronger just like every fighter in the series has shown.

Frieza is a prime example of this since he was going from 1 pct to 100 pct throughout the Goku fight in his final form.
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Super Buu is around the same strength as SS3 Gotenks. They were straight up having trouble with him and it was a good back and forth fight. At the end of the day they NEEDED SS3 while fused to even compete with Buu. It wasn't about showing off towards the end of that fight. Showing off in the beginning of that fight is what made Gotenks lose though since he wasted time.
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Even if they were stronger grunts, a grunt going from 100 to 150 doesn't mean much to people of Goku's levels at that point in the movie. Dude they straight up brought that SPECIFIC point of Goku being carless in the movie. Goku's new trainer, Whis, specifically told Goku he was too careless in his fights and it'd be the death of him someday.
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Yes Bills could of Destroyed Goku in God form right from the start. Bills already told Goku he wasn't even using his real power while Goku was only using 80 pct. (That's still quite a lot)

Beerus tried harder, but he never said he was going all out either.

BUT, at the end of the day, Beerus was looking for a FIGHT. Not a Kill. He let Goku go/live numerous times during that fight and only tried to kill him after he felt Goku showed him all he could.

We even have Akira Toiriyama rank the fighters. ==> "I suppose if Beerus’ strength is a 10, [Super Saiyan] God would be right about 6. Only, Saiyans rapidly increase in strength as they fight against strong opponents, so the longer they fought, the more that gap would shrink, and it might even be possible for them to eventually turn the tables. Incidentally, I guess Whis would be about a 15" - Akira Toriyama

source: www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/battle-gods-animanga-akira-toriyama/

Goku still needs to go through more training with Whis before he can close the gap. At that point in the movie Goku was only slightly higher than half of Bills power by word of the author himself.
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"I fought against a Super Saiyan God who looked just like THIS ONE" -Beerus
(talking about Goku on the screen)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=2k0P8nTro1c
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It's quite obvious why anybody would hold back. There no need to do more otherwise Buu could of just blown up the planet to kill Gohan. Why don't u make a case on that because it's a perfect valid and sure way to kill his enemies considering his regeneration powers?

Hell, kid buu did it and killed Mystic Gohan , Piccolo, and Gotenks (trunks and goten).
Also, the difference is that Kidd Buu is rage incarnate and Super Gotenks Buu has Piccolo's intelligence and modesty canceling out Gotenks hot headness.

It's called personality traits bro.
#204 - dontread (07/13/2015) [-]
He was still terrified of Dabura even after he found out how strong all the Z fighters were.

Supreme Kai straight up thought Gohan was the only one who was a match for Dabura until Vegeta went Majin and proved otherwise.
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Pui Pui? the master of a ten times gravity planet?
The Saiyans grew up in a high gravity planet too and most of them were weaklings.

Was Pui Pui as strong as Frieza? When did they state this?
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Goku went super saiyan with 40 tons on each limb... Initially it was going to be 10, but then the west guy decided 40 tons and King Kai just told him to do it.

Chapter 429 page 9ish..
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#193 - Goku is definitely more powerful than Frieza in his base form.…  [+] (10 new replies) 07/11/2015 on DBZ Kill Count 0
#194 - dontread (07/11/2015) [-]
Whis, the strongest being and trainer, didn't contest Beerus' statment. Whis LOVES correcting Beerus. Goku didn't even contest Beerus and I'm pretty sure he knows how strong he is in base form. Goku was at Beerus's mercy. He doesn't have to goad anyone into doing anything, ordering is good enough.

He even immediately brought up the transformations he has after telling him he couldn't beat frieza as he was. There was no trickery here.
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Tien did little against Super Buu. He got knocked out with one half hearted kick.

Are you talking bout the ONE time he knocked off a ball of energy against Super Buu?

Let me point out the example of Goku and Vegeta doing the same exact thing against kid buu, that is knocking off a ball of energy. Want to know what Kid Buu did immediately after? Make a much stronger one in an instant that they couldn't hope to deflect in their ss2 states.

Obviously Kid Buu or Super Buu weren't giving it their all in those situations so using those scenarios as measures of power is highly questionable.
====
Of course Gohan could still hold his own against him . Dabura's goal wasn't to kill Gohan; It was to battle him for energy to feed Majin Buu. What good is Gohan's energy if he's dead?

Dabura vs Base Gohan might as well have been the same as Goten vs Gohan during sparring

Gohan wouldn't KO Goten because of reasons (their brothers and their training) so it'd only appear Goten could hold his own.

Babidi brought that energy thing up when Goku was fighting the earlier Majin Minion.
You need to do DAMAGE to steal the energy for Majin Buu.

Also think about what you just said.

A WEAKER base Gohan was holding his own against Dabura who was said to be able to rival Super Perfect Cell. Super Perfect Cell wasn't that far lower than a prime SS2 Teen Gohan.

Assuming Adult and Teen Gohan are near the same strength ,which is far from the truth, Teen Gohan at SS2 is at least 100x stronger than base Adult Gohan because of the Super Saiyan Multipliers. ( SS1 = [50x] | SS2 = [2xSS1] )

So are u saying Base Adult Gohan, who is known to be weaker than Teen Gohan, is 100x stronger than base Teen Gohan?

Think about that for a second. I believe it's obvious Dabura was holding back until Gohan got serious.
User avatar #196 - wertologist (07/11/2015) [-]
Beerus wasn't trying to trick Goku. He was just trying to get him to tell him what he knew. He was just going about it casually. Goku wasn't at his mercy when Beerus asked him about super saiyan god. At that time he thought he could hurt Beerus so why would he think he was at his mercy. He was acting awkward around him because King Kai was scolding him for being rude and Goku isn't well know for behaving proper. Goku also didn't have a chance to correct him as Beerus was just talking about his base form leading up to his transformation. It could also be possible Beerus meant Goku's base form WHEN he fought Frieza. Whis probably didn't correct him due to him not being finished, him knowing he was just trying to get information, or simply not caring.

When Goku fought first fought Frieza they were nearly evenly matched. Frieza wasn't using 100% of his power, but the point still stands. Goku snapped after Krillin was killed and overpowered Frieza. In his base form he was nearly as strong as his final form(not 100%). Goku only gets stronger as the series goes on and it doesn't make sense that his base form would stay the same when every other character's base form only gets stronger.

I also don't think Beerus knows just how strong Goku is. When he sees him transform into SS3 he was a little suprised meaning he didn't know how strong he was/could get. People in the DBZ universe have a habit of hiding their power.

For your counter on Tien bouncing back Super Buus attack, not just anyone can bounce back a powerful blast otherwise every Z fighter would. It would take a lot of strength to deflect a blast from any of the Buus.

As for Goku and Vegeta deflecting Kid Buus attacks, they are still insanely powerful.

Super Buu and Kid Buu weren't giving it their all, but that doesn't mean they weren't ridiculously strong.

Tien was able to hold off Semi-Perfect Cell with a blast that barely even hurt Nappa. S-P Cell is obviously stronger than Frieza. Goku is obviously stronger than Tien and Tien never stopped training(which is why he was able to deflect Super Buu's blast). Tien was also able to fight against Cell' Jr.s. The Cell Jr.s were equal to Trunk's SS form. Tien didn't win, but he at least was able to fight them.

I'm aware Dabura wasn't trying to kill Gohan, but he still was having difficulty fighting him.

Imperfect Cell is stronger than Frieza. Frieza is weaker than a super saiyan. Imperfect Cell is able to kill Trunks as a super saiyan. Semi-Perfect Cell was pinned down by Tien. Tien wasn't as strong as Semi-Perfect Cell, but he was strong enough to pin him down.

If Goku could not beat Frieza in his base form, that would mean he is weaker than Tien.
#197 - dontread (07/12/2015) [-]
It's not about Goku knowing if he could hurt him or not. Beerus knew he could. So there's no reason to go about it so casually/ talking down to goku. He could of just asked and gotten his answer. That's what he did with everyone else, why is Goku special considering Goku was the one most likely to answer his question in the first place.

Beerus specifically went up to Goku, evaluated him, then told him he didn't believe he could beat Frieza. It's a stretch to say he did all that then, for some reason, talked about Goku's strength from a decade in the past.
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What are you talking about? Frieza at most used 50 pct of his power during the Pre-Super Saiyan part of the fight. He also did that while mopping the floor with Goku. Goku was using a TWENTY TIMES KaoiKen and still couldn't touch Frieza. Goku was fighting at TWENTY TIMES his base form and still getting beat out.
Frieza vastly outmatched Goku.

There's a reason he needed a FIFTY times multiplier from his Super Saiyan form to beat Frieza.
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Goku's base did get stronger. I believe you underestimated how strong Frieza was in comparison to everyone back then. They did improve over the series, but Frieza still had a HUGE gap between them in their base form. He seriously was a monster.
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Yes people can hide their power, but Goku not transforming isn't the same as him hiding his power. His transformations are multipliers not releasers.
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It's well known Tien's Neo Tri Beam has an ENORMOUS multiplier to his attack. Tien had to use his most forbidden and powerful technique just to slightly deflect a blast meant to kill a severely beat down Gohan.

If you don't believe me go look at Tien holding down Semi-Perfect Cell with it. It uses up his life energy that's why it has a high multiplier; it's in exchange for losing part of ur life.

Tien's strong but, at the time, Super Gotenks Buu was dimensions apart in strength from Vegeta and Goku (ss3) even. I doubt Tien was anywhere close. You'd have to make a pretty good case without skewing up proven power rankings.
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Yes Goku and Vegeta were insanely powerful at the time. But they were just SS1 when they deflected Kid Buu's half-hearted blast. We also know it takes a SS3 Goku to put up a fight with Kid Buu so obviously deflecting isn't a good indicator of putting up a fight with the guy who shot the blast since it's hard to prove he was even giving it his all in that attack.
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Again, Tien's attack has a high multiplier in exchange for his life. This is something people have known since Dragonball when Goku was a kid. At the end of the day Semi-Perfect Cell wasn't injured at all and Tien pretty much almost committed suicide to buy, like, 6 seconds for the androids to escape.

I agree, Tien holding his own against Cell Jr's was a good feat. But at the end of the day he did just that; hold his own. The Cell Jrs were waiting on kill orders from Cell anyway so it's arguable they were just killing time with the weak Z fighters until then. The Cell Jrs were strong enough to make Krillin, someone who's supposed to be stronger than Tien by word of Akria Toriyama himself, a hostage against Teen Gohan quite easily.
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Vegata was quite weaker than Goku during the Buu Saga without his Majin Powerup, let alone lack of SS3, and he had an ENORMOUS amount of trouble buying Goku a minute of time against Kid Buu.

Tien almost killed himself to buy people seconds of time to escape...
User avatar #198 - wertologist (07/12/2015) [-]
Beerus knew he could destroy Goku, but chose to talk to him in a friendly manner to get information. He does that on Earth too. He could have easily destroyed everyone on Earth, but chose to be civil and not announce he was a god of destruction. Goku stood out because he was the strongest and he was on a Kai's world. Beerus also went to him because he was told Goku killed Frieza so he wanted to see him in person.

Frieza was stronger than Goku's base form then, but his base form got far stronger as he trained. Having a powerful super form means having a powerful base form.

The Cell Jr.s beat Tien after he managed to actually fight against them. The Cell Jr.s were as strong as Trunks' SS1 form AFTER he got after the Hyperbolic Time Chamber. Before the Cell games, Trunks was significantly weaker, but still managed to absolutely destroy Frieza even though he was said to be stronger than when he fought Goku.

So beefed up super saiyan Trunks(who when weaker decimated Frieza) was on par with the Cell Jrs. Tien was able to fight them. Granted he wasn't as strong as them and they weren't trying to kill them, but he managed to damage them. To say Goku couldn't defeat Frieza is to say he is weaker than Tien.

I'm well aware Vegeta was nowhere near as strong as Goku. I'm also aware he had difficulty fighting Kid Buu. The simple fact that Tien was able to deflect a blast from Buu is enough to show how powerful he is. That blast was meant to kill Gohan so it must have been powerful. Why would Buu shoot a blast at Gohan if it was weak enough for someone weaker than Frieza to deflect/block?

Krillin also agreed to fight Abo and Kado in "Yo! Son Goku And His Friends Return" when he was told they were as strong as Frieza. Goku had no interest in fighing them due to them only being a little stronger than Frieza To also say Goku couldn't beat Frieza in his base form is to say he is also weaker than Krillin. Goku defeats the fused Abo and Cado(Abocado) by going super saiyan, but it is likely he would not have needed to due to how it only took ONE punch. Abocado has the combined strengh of two equally powerful people who were stronger than Frieza. So they were more than twice as strong as Frieza and it only took ONE punch from Super Saiyan Goku. Goku as a super saiyan overpowered Frieza, but still Frieza could take far more than a punch. You even said it yourself. Goku and everyone got far stronger in their base forms. So Goku is far stronger than Frieza.

Akira Toriyama stated that Krillin was the strongest human. He doesn't consider Tien human due to the third eye thing for some reason.

Yo! Son Goku And His Friends Return is considered canon as it is mentioned in Battle of the Gods when Bulma asks about Vegeta's brother.
#200 - dontread (07/12/2015) [-]
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The more likely scenario is that only while fused does AboCado's power compare to Frieza.

Why else would Goten and Trunks need to fuse? Sure you could argue they did it to show off fusion too, but that's incredibly overkill if you're right.. AboCado (fused) still managed to give base Gotenks some kind of resistance in the end.

Also to debunk your Krillin Theory. In the Revival of F movie when Krillin found out Frieza was back in town his initial response was that he was glad that Gohan was still on Earth.

He wasn't even confident at all that he could beat final form Frieza that far into the future in Revival of F when he was probably stronger!
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Akira never made any specific comment towards Tien not being human. Tien is just part of a special clan. He got his 3rd eye through meditation.

in the manga Tien didn't have as many training montages as they showed in the anime.

In the anime they made it seem like he trained with King Kai and all this other stuff which was all filler. He never fought the Ginyu force and he was pretty much Saiyan Saga level after getting revived after the Namek Saga. Krillin by then had trained, gotten a powerup from Guru, and trained some more.

Krillin had a HUGE headstart on Tien since the Namek Saga. It's almost unfair that Tien was MIA for an entire saga when everyone powered up so much.
#199 - dontread (07/12/2015) [-]
He went to Goku specifically because Goku was the one he saw in his dream supposedly.

Yeah, but trying to goad Goku into showing him everything he's got the way you described is super inefficient considering all he had to do was ask or order him and he definitely would of got to see it.

Bills was straight up leaving and Goku was the one who asked to show off for him.
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You're correct. Goku had an incredible base form and super form. But so did Frieza (since his base form is technically his "final" form). Goku's super form is so powerful cause it has such high multipliers.

If Goku is 1000, then his super saiyan 3 is 4,000,000. If Goku increases his base form to 1100 then his super saiyan 3 goes to 4,400,000.
Just increasing his base form by 10 pct of his strength in base results in an extra 400,000 battle power.

To this day the battle power increase during the Namek Saga was the most absurd and rapid in all of the series. They straight up went from the single thousands to MILLIONS from the saiyan saga to the frieza saga. (Goku specifically)
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I know the Cell Jr's are strong. They were strong enough to hold off Trunks and Vegeta after their SECOND training session in the HTC.

I think you're getting your information off the anime filler they added in those fights.
In reality Tien never damaged any of them. They just put those fight scenes there to make the scene longer.

Again, that's the problem with filler. It's inconsistent as fuck.
If we go by filler then pre Buu Saga Super Saiyan 1 Goku can go toe to toe with Super Perfect Cell which is an absurd statement.

If we go by filler then Krillin can hold his own with Imperfect Cell...
If we go by filler then Super Saiyan 3 Goku can hold his own with Super Gotenks Buu which, again, is an absurd statement considering both Super Buu and Gotenks are way stronger than Goku by themselves, let alone combined together...
www.dbz-zone.org/dragonball_manga.php
Read dragonball chapter 408 on that site. Or on mangareader.com
Tien IMMEDIATELY gets taken out by Cell Jrs.
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I don't mean to sound like a prick, but if the filler in the manga made sense i wouldn't be so picky about using it. But the filler in the manga rarely makes sense...
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Tien is definitely powerful by normal standards. Deflecting a blast from gotenks buu certainly takes a powerful individual to pull off. Still, Tien in comparison was still not that much in comparison to everyone else, let alone somebody like Frieza.

Gohan was beaten down. He was wasted on energy. In the new revival of F movie we saw GOKU in his most powerful form get taken out by a GRUNT.

A GRUNT. Why? because he was careless. He didn't put up a defense with his ki.
Gohan obviously wasn't careless ( well... not at that moment cause, earlier, not killing Super Buu outright was carless), but he probably was running low on ki at that point in the fight.

That's a good justification for having a weak finishing blow I'd say.
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In Yo Son Goku i need you to remember something dude. That statement came from a person who needed a scouter to rely on powerl evels. He also got all his information off of Namekians. Namekians who never even saw or felt Frieza's final form's powerlevel.

Not only that, Vegeta during the Namek Saga had a good "idea" on how strong Frieza was.
Vegeta was completely wrong at the end of the day. Vegeta's brother probably only had 1st form Frieza to compare with. At the time only certain select few Z fighters even knew what Frieza's power level really was pre-Trunks saga.

Then you have to think of the fact that Goten and Trunks need Super Saiyan forms to even compete with a non-serious 18. There's no way in their base they're near Frieza's powerlevel at all. They'd be monsters with that 50x multiplier.
#201 - dontread (07/12/2015) [-]
Added in an extra 0 for some reason.

It's 1000 ---> 400,000
and 1100 ---> 440,000

40,000 extra. from 100 more on his base.
User avatar #202 - wertologist (07/12/2015) [-]
You seem to forget DBZ has inconsistencies and plot errors. I'm just going with what makes sense. The characters have shown they are stronger than Frieza.

It doesn't matter if Vegeta's brother had wrong information about they're power levels. They all though he meant Frieza's real strength. He also told them that they were both equal to Frieza. He probably didn't even know about their fusion due to them not even needing it to fight him. Also, the z fighters would all be able to sense them as most people don't know how to hide their strength. No one in Frieza's army could hide their power unless their power relied on transformations.

Goten and Trunks fused for the very reason on showing off. That's what they do. While as Gotenks they become incredibly vain and showy. Gotenks could have easily destroyed Super Buu, but chose to pretend like he/they couldn't. That's what they do. Show off. They wanted to fuse to show off and most likely to mimic them for the fun of it. The only time they didn't try to show off was when they fought Beerus because they saw how easily he shoved everyone aside.

All of Frieza's new grunts were far more powerful than they used to be. Goku doesn't just go and be careless in a fight. He lives to fight. He also would have sensed their power levels.

By your logic, Beerus could have also just destroyed Goku while in God form right from the start. Just because he can do something, doesn't mean he will. He could have just demanded all the saiyans on Earth tell him what he wanted, but he chose to just party with them. He didn't exactly dream about Goku. He dreamed about fighting a super saiyan god. He didn't know it was Goku otherwise he would have pursued trying to fight him rather than having to be asked. He could have easily killed Goku at any point, but chose not to and to talk.

When Buu shot a kill shot toward Gohan there is no reason to think it was weak. Buu doesn't really care about holding back. He had the upper hand and thought there was no one left to fight him so why would he hold back? Buu was a monster and monsters don't usually hold back. Look at Kid Buu. He shot a blast that could destroy the Earth ten times. Overkill is what DBZ is all about.

Again, all of the Supreme Kais could kill Frieza in one hit. Supreme Kai was terrified of Dabura and surprised to find out how strong the z fighters were.

Pui Pui was pretty close to how strong Frieza was, but Vegeta defeated him with ease.

Again, you seem to be forgetting how Goku was able to stand/fly with 10 tons on each limb. He probably could have trained with them if he had wanted to, but chose to go super saiyan to make it easier. He would not have been able to do that on Namek otherwise he would have destroyed Frieza with ease. Goku was far stronger than Frieza at that point.
#203 - dontread (07/13/2015) [-]
the anime does seen inconsistent because of filler. The characters have always shown they were stronger than Frieza but only the Namekian and saiyan characters...

The anime shows Krillin getting stomped by 20 but then suddenly Krillin can toss Imperfect Cell around for a bit. What?
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You're right. They were Abo and Cado were BOTH equal to Frieza, not each.
If Abo or Cado ever fought tarble then Tarble probably never would of lived to tell the tale anyway so i highly doubt they ever fought.

Only some of the Z fighters even knew what Frieza's real strength was in the first place.
Krillin, Gohan, Vegeta, Piccolo, and Goku. That's it.

Mecha Frieza was quite a bit stronger than flesh Frieza and is considered a different "Frieza" entirely since he got powered up.

That's entirely False regarding the power hiding thing u said. Most of Frieza's army don't know how to COMPLETELY hide their powerlevels. They can still powerup themselves and get stronger just like every fighter in the series has shown.

Frieza is a prime example of this since he was going from 1 pct to 100 pct throughout the Goku fight in his final form.
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Super Buu is around the same strength as SS3 Gotenks. They were straight up having trouble with him and it was a good back and forth fight. At the end of the day they NEEDED SS3 while fused to even compete with Buu. It wasn't about showing off towards the end of that fight. Showing off in the beginning of that fight is what made Gotenks lose though since he wasted time.
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Even if they were stronger grunts, a grunt going from 100 to 150 doesn't mean much to people of Goku's levels at that point in the movie. Dude they straight up brought that SPECIFIC point of Goku being carless in the movie. Goku's new trainer, Whis, specifically told Goku he was too careless in his fights and it'd be the death of him someday.
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Yes Bills could of Destroyed Goku in God form right from the start. Bills already told Goku he wasn't even using his real power while Goku was only using 80 pct. (That's still quite a lot)

Beerus tried harder, but he never said he was going all out either.

BUT, at the end of the day, Beerus was looking for a FIGHT. Not a Kill. He let Goku go/live numerous times during that fight and only tried to kill him after he felt Goku showed him all he could.

We even have Akira Toiriyama rank the fighters. ==> "I suppose if Beerus’ strength is a 10, [Super Saiyan] God would be right about 6. Only, Saiyans rapidly increase in strength as they fight against strong opponents, so the longer they fought, the more that gap would shrink, and it might even be possible for them to eventually turn the tables. Incidentally, I guess Whis would be about a 15" - Akira Toriyama

source: www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/battle-gods-animanga-akira-toriyama/

Goku still needs to go through more training with Whis before he can close the gap. At that point in the movie Goku was only slightly higher than half of Bills power by word of the author himself.
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"I fought against a Super Saiyan God who looked just like THIS ONE" -Beerus
(talking about Goku on the screen)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=2k0P8nTro1c
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It's quite obvious why anybody would hold back. There no need to do more otherwise Buu could of just blown up the planet to kill Gohan. Why don't u make a case on that because it's a perfect valid and sure way to kill his enemies considering his regeneration powers?

Hell, kid buu did it and killed Mystic Gohan , Piccolo, and Gotenks (trunks and goten).
Also, the difference is that Kidd Buu is rage incarnate and Super Gotenks Buu has Piccolo's intelligence and modesty canceling out Gotenks hot headness.

It's called personality traits bro.
#204 - dontread (07/13/2015) [-]
He was still terrified of Dabura even after he found out how strong all the Z fighters were.

Supreme Kai straight up thought Gohan was the only one who was a match for Dabura until Vegeta went Majin and proved otherwise.
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Pui Pui? the master of a ten times gravity planet?
The Saiyans grew up in a high gravity planet too and most of them were weaklings.

Was Pui Pui as strong as Frieza? When did they state this?
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Goku went super saiyan with 40 tons on each limb... Initially it was going to be 10, but then the west guy decided 40 tons and King Kai just told him to do it.

Chapter 429 page 9ish..
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#20 - The thing I love about Nintendo is they build **** to l…  [+] (10 new replies) 07/11/2015 on N64 Childhood, No console Wars +2
User avatar #21 - labree (07/11/2015) [-]
Nintendo is they build shit to last

tell that to their joysticks.
User avatar #28 - OtisMcWonderful (07/11/2015) [-]
You have to remember that it was the first analog stick on a gaming console. Cut it some slack. Sega and Sony didn't even add analog to their controllers until a year after the N64 launched.

But if you have working sticks, just open the controller, open the stick housing, and add a non-conductive grease to the bowl. It'll stop the wearing problem.
User avatar #29 - labree (07/11/2015) [-]
im not talking about n64 joysticks.

n64 joysticks wear down fast, gc joysticks wear down fast. infact, they have used the same joystick "box" since the gc controller, maybe even the n64

it was the first analogue stick, and nintendo still uses the second one they released.

all theyve done is changed the material from cheap plastic to metal if i remember right, which still wears down just as fast
#31 - OtisMcWonderful (07/11/2015) [-]
You're probably thinking about the caps, the rubber/plastic grip. The analog mechanism itself doesn't have much room for improvement. All current systems use one similar to pic related. This isn't anything specific to Nintendo. However, Smash is rougher on a stick than most other fighting games, so it makes it seem like Nintendo's controllers wear out faster.

The N64 doesn't use this at all. The N64 uses a less "modern" approach. The basic idea is the same, but not quite. The rotating section moves gears on the side with small holes in them. These gears allow an optical sensor to pick up light to determine the position, similar to old ball mice. This is actually more accurate than "modern" sticks because of the digital nature of it. Newer sticks are completely analog, which can introduce noise into the signal, even without moving the stick.
koti.mbnet.fi/~ilesj/coll/pic/n64-controller-analogstick1.jpg
User avatar #32 - labree (07/11/2015) [-]
no im talking about the joystick boxes

there is room for improvement, ive had my logitech f570 for almost 2 years now, used atleast 3 or 4 times as much and way harder and it hasnt even begun to loosen up

yes the function and way it works might be the same, but the material is diffirent and doesnt wear down anywhere near as easily.

and nintendo is still using the same joystick boxes and material from the gamecube controller. no upgrades and no new material whatsoever.
User avatar #33 - OtisMcWonderful (07/11/2015) [-]
Why would they "upgrade" it? The average person doesn't wear shit out in less than a year. Out of all of my controllers, only one of my 360 controllers is starting to show any wear at all, and it's 5 years old now. My N64 controller's stick isn't even loose.

If you want to help prevent wear on sticks other than the N64, get a dry, non-conductive lubricant like DryTrac. Otherwise, some simple white lithium grease works fine for the N64.
User avatar #34 - labree (07/11/2015) [-]
im not saying upgrade it. i just said that they havent

you also completely missed the point about the material.
User avatar #35 - OtisMcWonderful (07/11/2015) [-]
I didn't miss any point at all. You said the material wears down too fast for you, and I'm telling you how you can fix it.
User avatar #36 - labree (07/11/2015) [-]
the point is we shouldnt have to fix it.

no other controllers joysticks wear out as fast as nintendo joysticks

i say nintendo because they are still using the same material that they use in the gamecube controllers.
User avatar #37 - OtisMcWonderful (07/11/2015) [-]
>im not saying upgrade it
>the point is we shouldnt have to fix it.

So which is it? They either change materials as in upgrade or you lube it yourself.

>i say nintendo because they are still using the same material that they use in the gamecube controllers.
What's your point? Sony still uses the same shit since the PS1. And the Xbox controllers are essentially the same thing molded to a different controller shape. I can't really say anything about the PS4 and Xbone controllers since I haven't taken any of those apart, but I imagine they're still very similar internally.
#67 - If some dumb ass kid wants to get a sex change operation, then… 07/11/2015 on America, you done goofed! +2
#181 - When you said final form, I figured you meant his final form i…  [+] (12 new replies) 07/10/2015 on DBZ Kill Count 0
#192 - dontread (07/11/2015) [-]
no i do mean his "final" form.

Not "Golden Frieza"
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Goku in the beginning of Battle of Gods was evaluated by Bills and Whis and it was determined that Goku, in his base, shouldn't of been able to beat Final Form Frieza.

Goku didn't contest that statement and neither did Whis. It was only when Goku transformed to SS3 that Bills got slightly impressed at his power (in comparison to his own of course).

After that Goku became a god and absorbed God Ki, thus augmenting his base form as well. THEN was Goku able to outmatch pretty much everyone in his base form alone.
User avatar #193 - wertologist (07/11/2015) [-]
Goku is definitely more powerful than Frieza in his base form. Beerus seems to know little of the saiyans abilities as he doesn't even know what a super saiyan is. I feel the need to point out that Goku is far stronger than Tien, but Tien was able to fend off Super Buu who is obviously far stronger than Frieza.

When Beerus said he couldn't believe he could beat him in that form I think he was just trying to get him to talk about his transformation. Beerus probably knew how strong he was, but tries to display his superior power to everyone as he constantly does. He was most likely just talking down to Goku.

Also, When Vegeta and Trunks came out of the Hyperbolic Time Chamber everyone could sense how much stronger they were in their base forms. The saiyans obviously powered up their base forms.

Another point, Supreme Kai says all Supereme Kais could defeat Frieza in one blow. Supreme Kai fears Dabura, but Gohan in his base form(weaker than when he fought Cell) could still hold his own against him. Granted he was losing, but Dabura was far stronger than Frieza. Goku was also clearly stronger than Gohan in base form so he would also be stronger than Frieza. Goku also believes Dabura is stronger than Cell.
#194 - dontread (07/11/2015) [-]
Whis, the strongest being and trainer, didn't contest Beerus' statment. Whis LOVES correcting Beerus. Goku didn't even contest Beerus and I'm pretty sure he knows how strong he is in base form. Goku was at Beerus's mercy. He doesn't have to goad anyone into doing anything, ordering is good enough.

He even immediately brought up the transformations he has after telling him he couldn't beat frieza as he was. There was no trickery here.
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Tien did little against Super Buu. He got knocked out with one half hearted kick.

Are you talking bout the ONE time he knocked off a ball of energy against Super Buu?

Let me point out the example of Goku and Vegeta doing the same exact thing against kid buu, that is knocking off a ball of energy. Want to know what Kid Buu did immediately after? Make a much stronger one in an instant that they couldn't hope to deflect in their ss2 states.

Obviously Kid Buu or Super Buu weren't giving it their all in those situations so using those scenarios as measures of power is highly questionable.
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Of course Gohan could still hold his own against him . Dabura's goal wasn't to kill Gohan; It was to battle him for energy to feed Majin Buu. What good is Gohan's energy if he's dead?

Dabura vs Base Gohan might as well have been the same as Goten vs Gohan during sparring

Gohan wouldn't KO Goten because of reasons (their brothers and their training) so it'd only appear Goten could hold his own.

Babidi brought that energy thing up when Goku was fighting the earlier Majin Minion.
You need to do DAMAGE to steal the energy for Majin Buu.

Also think about what you just said.

A WEAKER base Gohan was holding his own against Dabura who was said to be able to rival Super Perfect Cell. Super Perfect Cell wasn't that far lower than a prime SS2 Teen Gohan.

Assuming Adult and Teen Gohan are near the same strength ,which is far from the truth, Teen Gohan at SS2 is at least 100x stronger than base Adult Gohan because of the Super Saiyan Multipliers. ( SS1 = [50x] | SS2 = [2xSS1] )

So are u saying Base Adult Gohan, who is known to be weaker than Teen Gohan, is 100x stronger than base Teen Gohan?

Think about that for a second. I believe it's obvious Dabura was holding back until Gohan got serious.
User avatar #196 - wertologist (07/11/2015) [-]
Beerus wasn't trying to trick Goku. He was just trying to get him to tell him what he knew. He was just going about it casually. Goku wasn't at his mercy when Beerus asked him about super saiyan god. At that time he thought he could hurt Beerus so why would he think he was at his mercy. He was acting awkward around him because King Kai was scolding him for being rude and Goku isn't well know for behaving proper. Goku also didn't have a chance to correct him as Beerus was just talking about his base form leading up to his transformation. It could also be possible Beerus meant Goku's base form WHEN he fought Frieza. Whis probably didn't correct him due to him not being finished, him knowing he was just trying to get information, or simply not caring.

When Goku fought first fought Frieza they were nearly evenly matched. Frieza wasn't using 100% of his power, but the point still stands. Goku snapped after Krillin was killed and overpowered Frieza. In his base form he was nearly as strong as his final form(not 100%). Goku only gets stronger as the series goes on and it doesn't make sense that his base form would stay the same when every other character's base form only gets stronger.

I also don't think Beerus knows just how strong Goku is. When he sees him transform into SS3 he was a little suprised meaning he didn't know how strong he was/could get. People in the DBZ universe have a habit of hiding their power.

For your counter on Tien bouncing back Super Buus attack, not just anyone can bounce back a powerful blast otherwise every Z fighter would. It would take a lot of strength to deflect a blast from any of the Buus.

As for Goku and Vegeta deflecting Kid Buus attacks, they are still insanely powerful.

Super Buu and Kid Buu weren't giving it their all, but that doesn't mean they weren't ridiculously strong.

Tien was able to hold off Semi-Perfect Cell with a blast that barely even hurt Nappa. S-P Cell is obviously stronger than Frieza. Goku is obviously stronger than Tien and Tien never stopped training(which is why he was able to deflect Super Buu's blast). Tien was also able to fight against Cell' Jr.s. The Cell Jr.s were equal to Trunk's SS form. Tien didn't win, but he at least was able to fight them.

I'm aware Dabura wasn't trying to kill Gohan, but he still was having difficulty fighting him.

Imperfect Cell is stronger than Frieza. Frieza is weaker than a super saiyan. Imperfect Cell is able to kill Trunks as a super saiyan. Semi-Perfect Cell was pinned down by Tien. Tien wasn't as strong as Semi-Perfect Cell, but he was strong enough to pin him down.

If Goku could not beat Frieza in his base form, that would mean he is weaker than Tien.
#197 - dontread (07/12/2015) [-]
It's not about Goku knowing if he could hurt him or not. Beerus knew he could. So there's no reason to go about it so casually/ talking down to goku. He could of just asked and gotten his answer. That's what he did with everyone else, why is Goku special considering Goku was the one most likely to answer his question in the first place.

Beerus specifically went up to Goku, evaluated him, then told him he didn't believe he could beat Frieza. It's a stretch to say he did all that then, for some reason, talked about Goku's strength from a decade in the past.
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What are you talking about? Frieza at most used 50 pct of his power during the Pre-Super Saiyan part of the fight. He also did that while mopping the floor with Goku. Goku was using a TWENTY TIMES KaoiKen and still couldn't touch Frieza. Goku was fighting at TWENTY TIMES his base form and still getting beat out.
Frieza vastly outmatched Goku.

There's a reason he needed a FIFTY times multiplier from his Super Saiyan form to beat Frieza.
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Goku's base did get stronger. I believe you underestimated how strong Frieza was in comparison to everyone back then. They did improve over the series, but Frieza still had a HUGE gap between them in their base form. He seriously was a monster.
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Yes people can hide their power, but Goku not transforming isn't the same as him hiding his power. His transformations are multipliers not releasers.
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It's well known Tien's Neo Tri Beam has an ENORMOUS multiplier to his attack. Tien had to use his most forbidden and powerful technique just to slightly deflect a blast meant to kill a severely beat down Gohan.

If you don't believe me go look at Tien holding down Semi-Perfect Cell with it. It uses up his life energy that's why it has a high multiplier; it's in exchange for losing part of ur life.

Tien's strong but, at the time, Super Gotenks Buu was dimensions apart in strength from Vegeta and Goku (ss3) even. I doubt Tien was anywhere close. You'd have to make a pretty good case without skewing up proven power rankings.
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Yes Goku and Vegeta were insanely powerful at the time. But they were just SS1 when they deflected Kid Buu's half-hearted blast. We also know it takes a SS3 Goku to put up a fight with Kid Buu so obviously deflecting isn't a good indicator of putting up a fight with the guy who shot the blast since it's hard to prove he was even giving it his all in that attack.
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Again, Tien's attack has a high multiplier in exchange for his life. This is something people have known since Dragonball when Goku was a kid. At the end of the day Semi-Perfect Cell wasn't injured at all and Tien pretty much almost committed suicide to buy, like, 6 seconds for the androids to escape.

I agree, Tien holding his own against Cell Jr's was a good feat. But at the end of the day he did just that; hold his own. The Cell Jrs were waiting on kill orders from Cell anyway so it's arguable they were just killing time with the weak Z fighters until then. The Cell Jrs were strong enough to make Krillin, someone who's supposed to be stronger than Tien by word of Akria Toriyama himself, a hostage against Teen Gohan quite easily.
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Vegata was quite weaker than Goku during the Buu Saga without his Majin Powerup, let alone lack of SS3, and he had an ENORMOUS amount of trouble buying Goku a minute of time against Kid Buu.

Tien almost killed himself to buy people seconds of time to escape...
User avatar #198 - wertologist (07/12/2015) [-]
Beerus knew he could destroy Goku, but chose to talk to him in a friendly manner to get information. He does that on Earth too. He could have easily destroyed everyone on Earth, but chose to be civil and not announce he was a god of destruction. Goku stood out because he was the strongest and he was on a Kai's world. Beerus also went to him because he was told Goku killed Frieza so he wanted to see him in person.

Frieza was stronger than Goku's base form then, but his base form got far stronger as he trained. Having a powerful super form means having a powerful base form.

The Cell Jr.s beat Tien after he managed to actually fight against them. The Cell Jr.s were as strong as Trunks' SS1 form AFTER he got after the Hyperbolic Time Chamber. Before the Cell games, Trunks was significantly weaker, but still managed to absolutely destroy Frieza even though he was said to be stronger than when he fought Goku.

So beefed up super saiyan Trunks(who when weaker decimated Frieza) was on par with the Cell Jrs. Tien was able to fight them. Granted he wasn't as strong as them and they weren't trying to kill them, but he managed to damage them. To say Goku couldn't defeat Frieza is to say he is weaker than Tien.

I'm well aware Vegeta was nowhere near as strong as Goku. I'm also aware he had difficulty fighting Kid Buu. The simple fact that Tien was able to deflect a blast from Buu is enough to show how powerful he is. That blast was meant to kill Gohan so it must have been powerful. Why would Buu shoot a blast at Gohan if it was weak enough for someone weaker than Frieza to deflect/block?

Krillin also agreed to fight Abo and Kado in "Yo! Son Goku And His Friends Return" when he was told they were as strong as Frieza. Goku had no interest in fighing them due to them only being a little stronger than Frieza To also say Goku couldn't beat Frieza in his base form is to say he is also weaker than Krillin. Goku defeats the fused Abo and Cado(Abocado) by going super saiyan, but it is likely he would not have needed to due to how it only took ONE punch. Abocado has the combined strengh of two equally powerful people who were stronger than Frieza. So they were more than twice as strong as Frieza and it only took ONE punch from Super Saiyan Goku. Goku as a super saiyan overpowered Frieza, but still Frieza could take far more than a punch. You even said it yourself. Goku and everyone got far stronger in their base forms. So Goku is far stronger than Frieza.

Akira Toriyama stated that Krillin was the strongest human. He doesn't consider Tien human due to the third eye thing for some reason.

Yo! Son Goku And His Friends Return is considered canon as it is mentioned in Battle of the Gods when Bulma asks about Vegeta's brother.
#200 - dontread (07/12/2015) [-]
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The more likely scenario is that only while fused does AboCado's power compare to Frieza.

Why else would Goten and Trunks need to fuse? Sure you could argue they did it to show off fusion too, but that's incredibly overkill if you're right.. AboCado (fused) still managed to give base Gotenks some kind of resistance in the end.

Also to debunk your Krillin Theory. In the Revival of F movie when Krillin found out Frieza was back in town his initial response was that he was glad that Gohan was still on Earth.

He wasn't even confident at all that he could beat final form Frieza that far into the future in Revival of F when he was probably stronger!
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Akira never made any specific comment towards Tien not being human. Tien is just part of a special clan. He got his 3rd eye through meditation.

in the manga Tien didn't have as many training montages as they showed in the anime.

In the anime they made it seem like he trained with King Kai and all this other stuff which was all filler. He never fought the Ginyu force and he was pretty much Saiyan Saga level after getting revived after the Namek Saga. Krillin by then had trained, gotten a powerup from Guru, and trained some more.

Krillin had a HUGE headstart on Tien since the Namek Saga. It's almost unfair that Tien was MIA for an entire saga when everyone powered up so much.
#199 - dontread (07/12/2015) [-]
He went to Goku specifically because Goku was the one he saw in his dream supposedly.

Yeah, but trying to goad Goku into showing him everything he's got the way you described is super inefficient considering all he had to do was ask or order him and he definitely would of got to see it.

Bills was straight up leaving and Goku was the one who asked to show off for him.
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You're correct. Goku had an incredible base form and super form. But so did Frieza (since his base form is technically his "final" form). Goku's super form is so powerful cause it has such high multipliers.

If Goku is 1000, then his super saiyan 3 is 4,000,000. If Goku increases his base form to 1100 then his super saiyan 3 goes to 4,400,000.
Just increasing his base form by 10 pct of his strength in base results in an extra 400,000 battle power.

To this day the battle power increase during the Namek Saga was the most absurd and rapid in all of the series. They straight up went from the single thousands to MILLIONS from the saiyan saga to the frieza saga. (Goku specifically)
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I know the Cell Jr's are strong. They were strong enough to hold off Trunks and Vegeta after their SECOND training session in the HTC.

I think you're getting your information off the anime filler they added in those fights.
In reality Tien never damaged any of them. They just put those fight scenes there to make the scene longer.

Again, that's the problem with filler. It's inconsistent as fuck.
If we go by filler then pre Buu Saga Super Saiyan 1 Goku can go toe to toe with Super Perfect Cell which is an absurd statement.

If we go by filler then Krillin can hold his own with Imperfect Cell...
If we go by filler then Super Saiyan 3 Goku can hold his own with Super Gotenks Buu which, again, is an absurd statement considering both Super Buu and Gotenks are way stronger than Goku by themselves, let alone combined together...
www.dbz-zone.org/dragonball_manga.php
Read dragonball chapter 408 on that site. Or on mangareader.com
Tien IMMEDIATELY gets taken out by Cell Jrs.
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I don't mean to sound like a prick, but if the filler in the manga made sense i wouldn't be so picky about using it. But the filler in the manga rarely makes sense...
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Tien is definitely powerful by normal standards. Deflecting a blast from gotenks buu certainly takes a powerful individual to pull off. Still, Tien in comparison was still not that much in comparison to everyone else, let alone somebody like Frieza.

Gohan was beaten down. He was wasted on energy. In the new revival of F movie we saw GOKU in his most powerful form get taken out by a GRUNT.

A GRUNT. Why? because he was careless. He didn't put up a defense with his ki.
Gohan obviously wasn't careless ( well... not at that moment cause, earlier, not killing Super Buu outright was carless), but he probably was running low on ki at that point in the fight.

That's a good justification for having a weak finishing blow I'd say.
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In Yo Son Goku i need you to remember something dude. That statement came from a person who needed a scouter to rely on powerl evels. He also got all his information off of Namekians. Namekians who never even saw or felt Frieza's final form's powerlevel.

Not only that, Vegeta during the Namek Saga had a good "idea" on how strong Frieza was.
Vegeta was completely wrong at the end of the day. Vegeta's brother probably only had 1st form Frieza to compare with. At the time only certain select few Z fighters even knew what Frieza's power level really was pre-Trunks saga.

Then you have to think of the fact that Goten and Trunks need Super Saiyan forms to even compete with a non-serious 18. There's no way in their base they're near Frieza's powerlevel at all. They'd be monsters with that 50x multiplier.
#201 - dontread (07/12/2015) [-]
Added in an extra 0 for some reason.

It's 1000 ---> 400,000
and 1100 ---> 440,000

40,000 extra. from 100 more on his base.
User avatar #202 - wertologist (07/12/2015) [-]
You seem to forget DBZ has inconsistencies and plot errors. I'm just going with what makes sense. The characters have shown they are stronger than Frieza.

It doesn't matter if Vegeta's brother had wrong information about they're power levels. They all though he meant Frieza's real strength. He also told them that they were both equal to Frieza. He probably didn't even know about their fusion due to them not even needing it to fight him. Also, the z fighters would all be able to sense them as most people don't know how to hide their strength. No one in Frieza's army could hide their power unless their power relied on transformations.

Goten and Trunks fused for the very reason on showing off. That's what they do. While as Gotenks they become incredibly vain and showy. Gotenks could have easily destroyed Super Buu, but chose to pretend like he/they couldn't. That's what they do. Show off. They wanted to fuse to show off and most likely to mimic them for the fun of it. The only time they didn't try to show off was when they fought Beerus because they saw how easily he shoved everyone aside.

All of Frieza's new grunts were far more powerful than they used to be. Goku doesn't just go and be careless in a fight. He lives to fight. He also would have sensed their power levels.

By your logic, Beerus could have also just destroyed Goku while in God form right from the start. Just because he can do something, doesn't mean he will. He could have just demanded all the saiyans on Earth tell him what he wanted, but he chose to just party with them. He didn't exactly dream about Goku. He dreamed about fighting a super saiyan god. He didn't know it was Goku otherwise he would have pursued trying to fight him rather than having to be asked. He could have easily killed Goku at any point, but chose not to and to talk.

When Buu shot a kill shot toward Gohan there is no reason to think it was weak. Buu doesn't really care about holding back. He had the upper hand and thought there was no one left to fight him so why would he hold back? Buu was a monster and monsters don't usually hold back. Look at Kid Buu. He shot a blast that could destroy the Earth ten times. Overkill is what DBZ is all about.

Again, all of the Supreme Kais could kill Frieza in one hit. Supreme Kai was terrified of Dabura and surprised to find out how strong the z fighters were.

Pui Pui was pretty close to how strong Frieza was, but Vegeta defeated him with ease.

Again, you seem to be forgetting how Goku was able to stand/fly with 10 tons on each limb. He probably could have trained with them if he had wanted to, but chose to go super saiyan to make it easier. He would not have been able to do that on Namek otherwise he would have destroyed Frieza with ease. Goku was far stronger than Frieza at that point.
#203 - dontread (07/13/2015) [-]
the anime does seen inconsistent because of filler. The characters have always shown they were stronger than Frieza but only the Namekian and saiyan characters...

The anime shows Krillin getting stomped by 20 but then suddenly Krillin can toss Imperfect Cell around for a bit. What?
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You're right. They were Abo and Cado were BOTH equal to Frieza, not each.
If Abo or Cado ever fought tarble then Tarble probably never would of lived to tell the tale anyway so i highly doubt they ever fought.

Only some of the Z fighters even knew what Frieza's real strength was in the first place.
Krillin, Gohan, Vegeta, Piccolo, and Goku. That's it.

Mecha Frieza was quite a bit stronger than flesh Frieza and is considered a different "Frieza" entirely since he got powered up.

That's entirely False regarding the power hiding thing u said. Most of Frieza's army don't know how to COMPLETELY hide their powerlevels. They can still powerup themselves and get stronger just like every fighter in the series has shown.

Frieza is a prime example of this since he was going from 1 pct to 100 pct throughout the Goku fight in his final form.
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Super Buu is around the same strength as SS3 Gotenks. They were straight up having trouble with him and it was a good back and forth fight. At the end of the day they NEEDED SS3 while fused to even compete with Buu. It wasn't about showing off towards the end of that fight. Showing off in the beginning of that fight is what made Gotenks lose though since he wasted time.
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Even if they were stronger grunts, a grunt going from 100 to 150 doesn't mean much to people of Goku's levels at that point in the movie. Dude they straight up brought that SPECIFIC point of Goku being carless in the movie. Goku's new trainer, Whis, specifically told Goku he was too careless in his fights and it'd be the death of him someday.
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Yes Bills could of Destroyed Goku in God form right from the start. Bills already told Goku he wasn't even using his real power while Goku was only using 80 pct. (That's still quite a lot)

Beerus tried harder, but he never said he was going all out either.

BUT, at the end of the day, Beerus was looking for a FIGHT. Not a Kill. He let Goku go/live numerous times during that fight and only tried to kill him after he felt Goku showed him all he could.

We even have Akira Toiriyama rank the fighters. ==> "I suppose if Beerus’ strength is a 10, [Super Saiyan] God would be right about 6. Only, Saiyans rapidly increase in strength as they fight against strong opponents, so the longer they fought, the more that gap would shrink, and it might even be possible for them to eventually turn the tables. Incidentally, I guess Whis would be about a 15" - Akira Toriyama

source: www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/battle-gods-animanga-akira-toriyama/

Goku still needs to go through more training with Whis before he can close the gap. At that point in the movie Goku was only slightly higher than half of Bills power by word of the author himself.
----
"I fought against a Super Saiyan God who looked just like THIS ONE" -Beerus
(talking about Goku on the screen)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=2k0P8nTro1c
----
It's quite obvious why anybody would hold back. There no need to do more otherwise Buu could of just blown up the planet to kill Gohan. Why don't u make a case on that because it's a perfect valid and sure way to kill his enemies considering his regeneration powers?

Hell, kid buu did it and killed Mystic Gohan , Piccolo, and Gotenks (trunks and goten).
Also, the difference is that Kidd Buu is rage incarnate and Super Gotenks Buu has Piccolo's intelligence and modesty canceling out Gotenks hot headness.

It's called personality traits bro.
#204 - dontread (07/13/2015) [-]
He was still terrified of Dabura even after he found out how strong all the Z fighters were.

Supreme Kai straight up thought Gohan was the only one who was a match for Dabura until Vegeta went Majin and proved otherwise.
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Pui Pui? the master of a ten times gravity planet?
The Saiyans grew up in a high gravity planet too and most of them were weaklings.

Was Pui Pui as strong as Frieza? When did they state this?
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Goku went super saiyan with 40 tons on each limb... Initially it was going to be 10, but then the west guy decided 40 tons and King Kai just told him to do it.

Chapter 429 page 9ish..
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#141 - I'm pretty sure Goku in his base form as well as Gohan could e…  [+] (14 new replies) 07/10/2015 on DBZ Kill Count 0
#152 - dontread (07/10/2015) [-]
That's irrelevant.

First of all Pikkon is filler material. He's made up.

They had a somewhat FRESHLY DEAD Super Saiyan 1 <------ Goku go toe to toe with a character who 1HKO perfect Cell. The same Perfect Cell that could compare to SS2 Gohan in his prime...

Let that sink in. Don't use filler characters when gouging powers between characters.
----

Anyway i didn't say it's impossible for somebody in their base to get super crazy strong. Goku, after his god ki powerup, gained a super strong base form. I said Goku in his base, at the specific time before his god powerup and settlement in Revival of F, wasn't strong enough to beat Frieza.

This was determined by Bills when meeting Goku for the first time with King Kai and was NOT contested by Whis, the strongest being in the universe.

I'm not stating an opinion; I'm repeating an actual event and information statement that happened in the movie.
User avatar #181 - wertologist (07/10/2015) [-]
When you said final form, I figured you meant his final form in the show as that's what it's called. His latest form is called ultimate evolution. I have not seen the latest movie yet so I can't say much about that form.
#192 - dontread (07/11/2015) [-]
no i do mean his "final" form.

Not "Golden Frieza"
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Goku in the beginning of Battle of Gods was evaluated by Bills and Whis and it was determined that Goku, in his base, shouldn't of been able to beat Final Form Frieza.

Goku didn't contest that statement and neither did Whis. It was only when Goku transformed to SS3 that Bills got slightly impressed at his power (in comparison to his own of course).

After that Goku became a god and absorbed God Ki, thus augmenting his base form as well. THEN was Goku able to outmatch pretty much everyone in his base form alone.
User avatar #193 - wertologist (07/11/2015) [-]
Goku is definitely more powerful than Frieza in his base form. Beerus seems to know little of the saiyans abilities as he doesn't even know what a super saiyan is. I feel the need to point out that Goku is far stronger than Tien, but Tien was able to fend off Super Buu who is obviously far stronger than Frieza.

When Beerus said he couldn't believe he could beat him in that form I think he was just trying to get him to talk about his transformation. Beerus probably knew how strong he was, but tries to display his superior power to everyone as he constantly does. He was most likely just talking down to Goku.

Also, When Vegeta and Trunks came out of the Hyperbolic Time Chamber everyone could sense how much stronger they were in their base forms. The saiyans obviously powered up their base forms.

Another point, Supreme Kai says all Supereme Kais could defeat Frieza in one blow. Supreme Kai fears Dabura, but Gohan in his base form(weaker than when he fought Cell) could still hold his own against him. Granted he was losing, but Dabura was far stronger than Frieza. Goku was also clearly stronger than Gohan in base form so he would also be stronger than Frieza. Goku also believes Dabura is stronger than Cell.
#194 - dontread (07/11/2015) [-]
Whis, the strongest being and trainer, didn't contest Beerus' statment. Whis LOVES correcting Beerus. Goku didn't even contest Beerus and I'm pretty sure he knows how strong he is in base form. Goku was at Beerus's mercy. He doesn't have to goad anyone into doing anything, ordering is good enough.

He even immediately brought up the transformations he has after telling him he couldn't beat frieza as he was. There was no trickery here.
===
Tien did little against Super Buu. He got knocked out with one half hearted kick.

Are you talking bout the ONE time he knocked off a ball of energy against Super Buu?

Let me point out the example of Goku and Vegeta doing the same exact thing against kid buu, that is knocking off a ball of energy. Want to know what Kid Buu did immediately after? Make a much stronger one in an instant that they couldn't hope to deflect in their ss2 states.

Obviously Kid Buu or Super Buu weren't giving it their all in those situations so using those scenarios as measures of power is highly questionable.
====
Of course Gohan could still hold his own against him . Dabura's goal wasn't to kill Gohan; It was to battle him for energy to feed Majin Buu. What good is Gohan's energy if he's dead?

Dabura vs Base Gohan might as well have been the same as Goten vs Gohan during sparring

Gohan wouldn't KO Goten because of reasons (their brothers and their training) so it'd only appear Goten could hold his own.

Babidi brought that energy thing up when Goku was fighting the earlier Majin Minion.
You need to do DAMAGE to steal the energy for Majin Buu.

Also think about what you just said.

A WEAKER base Gohan was holding his own against Dabura who was said to be able to rival Super Perfect Cell. Super Perfect Cell wasn't that far lower than a prime SS2 Teen Gohan.

Assuming Adult and Teen Gohan are near the same strength ,which is far from the truth, Teen Gohan at SS2 is at least 100x stronger than base Adult Gohan because of the Super Saiyan Multipliers. ( SS1 = [50x] | SS2 = [2xSS1] )

So are u saying Base Adult Gohan, who is known to be weaker than Teen Gohan, is 100x stronger than base Teen Gohan?

Think about that for a second. I believe it's obvious Dabura was holding back until Gohan got serious.
User avatar #196 - wertologist (07/11/2015) [-]
Beerus wasn't trying to trick Goku. He was just trying to get him to tell him what he knew. He was just going about it casually. Goku wasn't at his mercy when Beerus asked him about super saiyan god. At that time he thought he could hurt Beerus so why would he think he was at his mercy. He was acting awkward around him because King Kai was scolding him for being rude and Goku isn't well know for behaving proper. Goku also didn't have a chance to correct him as Beerus was just talking about his base form leading up to his transformation. It could also be possible Beerus meant Goku's base form WHEN he fought Frieza. Whis probably didn't correct him due to him not being finished, him knowing he was just trying to get information, or simply not caring.

When Goku fought first fought Frieza they were nearly evenly matched. Frieza wasn't using 100% of his power, but the point still stands. Goku snapped after Krillin was killed and overpowered Frieza. In his base form he was nearly as strong as his final form(not 100%). Goku only gets stronger as the series goes on and it doesn't make sense that his base form would stay the same when every other character's base form only gets stronger.

I also don't think Beerus knows just how strong Goku is. When he sees him transform into SS3 he was a little suprised meaning he didn't know how strong he was/could get. People in the DBZ universe have a habit of hiding their power.

For your counter on Tien bouncing back Super Buus attack, not just anyone can bounce back a powerful blast otherwise every Z fighter would. It would take a lot of strength to deflect a blast from any of the Buus.

As for Goku and Vegeta deflecting Kid Buus attacks, they are still insanely powerful.

Super Buu and Kid Buu weren't giving it their all, but that doesn't mean they weren't ridiculously strong.

Tien was able to hold off Semi-Perfect Cell with a blast that barely even hurt Nappa. S-P Cell is obviously stronger than Frieza. Goku is obviously stronger than Tien and Tien never stopped training(which is why he was able to deflect Super Buu's blast). Tien was also able to fight against Cell' Jr.s. The Cell Jr.s were equal to Trunk's SS form. Tien didn't win, but he at least was able to fight them.

I'm aware Dabura wasn't trying to kill Gohan, but he still was having difficulty fighting him.

Imperfect Cell is stronger than Frieza. Frieza is weaker than a super saiyan. Imperfect Cell is able to kill Trunks as a super saiyan. Semi-Perfect Cell was pinned down by Tien. Tien wasn't as strong as Semi-Perfect Cell, but he was strong enough to pin him down.

If Goku could not beat Frieza in his base form, that would mean he is weaker than Tien.
#197 - dontread (07/12/2015) [-]
It's not about Goku knowing if he could hurt him or not. Beerus knew he could. So there's no reason to go about it so casually/ talking down to goku. He could of just asked and gotten his answer. That's what he did with everyone else, why is Goku special considering Goku was the one most likely to answer his question in the first place.

Beerus specifically went up to Goku, evaluated him, then told him he didn't believe he could beat Frieza. It's a stretch to say he did all that then, for some reason, talked about Goku's strength from a decade in the past.
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What are you talking about? Frieza at most used 50 pct of his power during the Pre-Super Saiyan part of the fight. He also did that while mopping the floor with Goku. Goku was using a TWENTY TIMES KaoiKen and still couldn't touch Frieza. Goku was fighting at TWENTY TIMES his base form and still getting beat out.
Frieza vastly outmatched Goku.

There's a reason he needed a FIFTY times multiplier from his Super Saiyan form to beat Frieza.
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Goku's base did get stronger. I believe you underestimated how strong Frieza was in comparison to everyone back then. They did improve over the series, but Frieza still had a HUGE gap between them in their base form. He seriously was a monster.
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Yes people can hide their power, but Goku not transforming isn't the same as him hiding his power. His transformations are multipliers not releasers.
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It's well known Tien's Neo Tri Beam has an ENORMOUS multiplier to his attack. Tien had to use his most forbidden and powerful technique just to slightly deflect a blast meant to kill a severely beat down Gohan.

If you don't believe me go look at Tien holding down Semi-Perfect Cell with it. It uses up his life energy that's why it has a high multiplier; it's in exchange for losing part of ur life.

Tien's strong but, at the time, Super Gotenks Buu was dimensions apart in strength from Vegeta and Goku (ss3) even. I doubt Tien was anywhere close. You'd have to make a pretty good case without skewing up proven power rankings.
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Yes Goku and Vegeta were insanely powerful at the time. But they were just SS1 when they deflected Kid Buu's half-hearted blast. We also know it takes a SS3 Goku to put up a fight with Kid Buu so obviously deflecting isn't a good indicator of putting up a fight with the guy who shot the blast since it's hard to prove he was even giving it his all in that attack.
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Again, Tien's attack has a high multiplier in exchange for his life. This is something people have known since Dragonball when Goku was a kid. At the end of the day Semi-Perfect Cell wasn't injured at all and Tien pretty much almost committed suicide to buy, like, 6 seconds for the androids to escape.

I agree, Tien holding his own against Cell Jr's was a good feat. But at the end of the day he did just that; hold his own. The Cell Jrs were waiting on kill orders from Cell anyway so it's arguable they were just killing time with the weak Z fighters until then. The Cell Jrs were strong enough to make Krillin, someone who's supposed to be stronger than Tien by word of Akria Toriyama himself, a hostage against Teen Gohan quite easily.
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Vegata was quite weaker than Goku during the Buu Saga without his Majin Powerup, let alone lack of SS3, and he had an ENORMOUS amount of trouble buying Goku a minute of time against Kid Buu.

Tien almost killed himself to buy people seconds of time to escape...
User avatar #198 - wertologist (07/12/2015) [-]
Beerus knew he could destroy Goku, but chose to talk to him in a friendly manner to get information. He does that on Earth too. He could have easily destroyed everyone on Earth, but chose to be civil and not announce he was a god of destruction. Goku stood out because he was the strongest and he was on a Kai's world. Beerus also went to him because he was told Goku killed Frieza so he wanted to see him in person.

Frieza was stronger than Goku's base form then, but his base form got far stronger as he trained. Having a powerful super form means having a powerful base form.

The Cell Jr.s beat Tien after he managed to actually fight against them. The Cell Jr.s were as strong as Trunks' SS1 form AFTER he got after the Hyperbolic Time Chamber. Before the Cell games, Trunks was significantly weaker, but still managed to absolutely destroy Frieza even though he was said to be stronger than when he fought Goku.

So beefed up super saiyan Trunks(who when weaker decimated Frieza) was on par with the Cell Jrs. Tien was able to fight them. Granted he wasn't as strong as them and they weren't trying to kill them, but he managed to damage them. To say Goku couldn't defeat Frieza is to say he is weaker than Tien.

I'm well aware Vegeta was nowhere near as strong as Goku. I'm also aware he had difficulty fighting Kid Buu. The simple fact that Tien was able to deflect a blast from Buu is enough to show how powerful he is. That blast was meant to kill Gohan so it must have been powerful. Why would Buu shoot a blast at Gohan if it was weak enough for someone weaker than Frieza to deflect/block?

Krillin also agreed to fight Abo and Kado in "Yo! Son Goku And His Friends Return" when he was told they were as strong as Frieza. Goku had no interest in fighing them due to them only being a little stronger than Frieza To also say Goku couldn't beat Frieza in his base form is to say he is also weaker than Krillin. Goku defeats the fused Abo and Cado(Abocado) by going super saiyan, but it is likely he would not have needed to due to how it only took ONE punch. Abocado has the combined strengh of two equally powerful people who were stronger than Frieza. So they were more than twice as strong as Frieza and it only took ONE punch from Super Saiyan Goku. Goku as a super saiyan overpowered Frieza, but still Frieza could take far more than a punch. You even said it yourself. Goku and everyone got far stronger in their base forms. So Goku is far stronger than Frieza.

Akira Toriyama stated that Krillin was the strongest human. He doesn't consider Tien human due to the third eye thing for some reason.

Yo! Son Goku And His Friends Return is considered canon as it is mentioned in Battle of the Gods when Bulma asks about Vegeta's brother.
#200 - dontread (07/12/2015) [-]
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The more likely scenario is that only while fused does AboCado's power compare to Frieza.

Why else would Goten and Trunks need to fuse? Sure you could argue they did it to show off fusion too, but that's incredibly overkill if you're right.. AboCado (fused) still managed to give base Gotenks some kind of resistance in the end.

Also to debunk your Krillin Theory. In the Revival of F movie when Krillin found out Frieza was back in town his initial response was that he was glad that Gohan was still on Earth.

He wasn't even confident at all that he could beat final form Frieza that far into the future in Revival of F when he was probably stronger!
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Akira never made any specific comment towards Tien not being human. Tien is just part of a special clan. He got his 3rd eye through meditation.

in the manga Tien didn't have as many training montages as they showed in the anime.

In the anime they made it seem like he trained with King Kai and all this other stuff which was all filler. He never fought the Ginyu force and he was pretty much Saiyan Saga level after getting revived after the Namek Saga. Krillin by then had trained, gotten a powerup from Guru, and trained some more.

Krillin had a HUGE headstart on Tien since the Namek Saga. It's almost unfair that Tien was MIA for an entire saga when everyone powered up so much.
#199 - dontread (07/12/2015) [-]
He went to Goku specifically because Goku was the one he saw in his dream supposedly.

Yeah, but trying to goad Goku into showing him everything he's got the way you described is super inefficient considering all he had to do was ask or order him and he definitely would of got to see it.

Bills was straight up leaving and Goku was the one who asked to show off for him.
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You're correct. Goku had an incredible base form and super form. But so did Frieza (since his base form is technically his "final" form). Goku's super form is so powerful cause it has such high multipliers.

If Goku is 1000, then his super saiyan 3 is 4,000,000. If Goku increases his base form to 1100 then his super saiyan 3 goes to 4,400,000.
Just increasing his base form by 10 pct of his strength in base results in an extra 400,000 battle power.

To this day the battle power increase during the Namek Saga was the most absurd and rapid in all of the series. They straight up went from the single thousands to MILLIONS from the saiyan saga to the frieza saga. (Goku specifically)
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I know the Cell Jr's are strong. They were strong enough to hold off Trunks and Vegeta after their SECOND training session in the HTC.

I think you're getting your information off the anime filler they added in those fights.
In reality Tien never damaged any of them. They just put those fight scenes there to make the scene longer.

Again, that's the problem with filler. It's inconsistent as fuck.
If we go by filler then pre Buu Saga Super Saiyan 1 Goku can go toe to toe with Super Perfect Cell which is an absurd statement.

If we go by filler then Krillin can hold his own with Imperfect Cell...
If we go by filler then Super Saiyan 3 Goku can hold his own with Super Gotenks Buu which, again, is an absurd statement considering both Super Buu and Gotenks are way stronger than Goku by themselves, let alone combined together...
www.dbz-zone.org/dragonball_manga.php
Read dragonball chapter 408 on that site. Or on mangareader.com
Tien IMMEDIATELY gets taken out by Cell Jrs.
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I don't mean to sound like a prick, but if the filler in the manga made sense i wouldn't be so picky about using it. But the filler in the manga rarely makes sense...
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Tien is definitely powerful by normal standards. Deflecting a blast from gotenks buu certainly takes a powerful individual to pull off. Still, Tien in comparison was still not that much in comparison to everyone else, let alone somebody like Frieza.

Gohan was beaten down. He was wasted on energy. In the new revival of F movie we saw GOKU in his most powerful form get taken out by a GRUNT.

A GRUNT. Why? because he was careless. He didn't put up a defense with his ki.
Gohan obviously wasn't careless ( well... not at that moment cause, earlier, not killing Super Buu outright was carless), but he probably was running low on ki at that point in the fight.

That's a good justification for having a weak finishing blow I'd say.
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In Yo Son Goku i need you to remember something dude. That statement came from a person who needed a scouter to rely on powerl evels. He also got all his information off of Namekians. Namekians who never even saw or felt Frieza's final form's powerlevel.

Not only that, Vegeta during the Namek Saga had a good "idea" on how strong Frieza was.
Vegeta was completely wrong at the end of the day. Vegeta's brother probably only had 1st form Frieza to compare with. At the time only certain select few Z fighters even knew what Frieza's power level really was pre-Trunks saga.

Then you have to think of the fact that Goten and Trunks need Super Saiyan forms to even compete with a non-serious 18. There's no way in their base they're near Frieza's powerlevel at all. They'd be monsters with that 50x multiplier.
#201 - dontread (07/12/2015) [-]
Added in an extra 0 for some reason.

It's 1000 ---> 400,000
and 1100 ---> 440,000

40,000 extra. from 100 more on his base.
User avatar #202 - wertologist (07/12/2015) [-]
You seem to forget DBZ has inconsistencies and plot errors. I'm just going with what makes sense. The characters have shown they are stronger than Frieza.

It doesn't matter if Vegeta's brother had wrong information about they're power levels. They all though he meant Frieza's real strength. He also told them that they were both equal to Frieza. He probably didn't even know about their fusion due to them not even needing it to fight him. Also, the z fighters would all be able to sense them as most people don't know how to hide their strength. No one in Frieza's army could hide their power unless their power relied on transformations.

Goten and Trunks fused for the very reason on showing off. That's what they do. While as Gotenks they become incredibly vain and showy. Gotenks could have easily destroyed Super Buu, but chose to pretend like he/they couldn't. That's what they do. Show off. They wanted to fuse to show off and most likely to mimic them for the fun of it. The only time they didn't try to show off was when they fought Beerus because they saw how easily he shoved everyone aside.

All of Frieza's new grunts were far more powerful than they used to be. Goku doesn't just go and be careless in a fight. He lives to fight. He also would have sensed their power levels.

By your logic, Beerus could have also just destroyed Goku while in God form right from the start. Just because he can do something, doesn't mean he will. He could have just demanded all the saiyans on Earth tell him what he wanted, but he chose to just party with them. He didn't exactly dream about Goku. He dreamed about fighting a super saiyan god. He didn't know it was Goku otherwise he would have pursued trying to fight him rather than having to be asked. He could have easily killed Goku at any point, but chose not to and to talk.

When Buu shot a kill shot toward Gohan there is no reason to think it was weak. Buu doesn't really care about holding back. He had the upper hand and thought there was no one left to fight him so why would he hold back? Buu was a monster and monsters don't usually hold back. Look at Kid Buu. He shot a blast that could destroy the Earth ten times. Overkill is what DBZ is all about.

Again, all of the Supreme Kais could kill Frieza in one hit. Supreme Kai was terrified of Dabura and surprised to find out how strong the z fighters were.

Pui Pui was pretty close to how strong Frieza was, but Vegeta defeated him with ease.

Again, you seem to be forgetting how Goku was able to stand/fly with 10 tons on each limb. He probably could have trained with them if he had wanted to, but chose to go super saiyan to make it easier. He would not have been able to do that on Namek otherwise he would have destroyed Frieza with ease. Goku was far stronger than Frieza at that point.
#203 - dontread (07/13/2015) [-]
the anime does seen inconsistent because of filler. The characters have always shown they were stronger than Frieza but only the Namekian and saiyan characters...

The anime shows Krillin getting stomped by 20 but then suddenly Krillin can toss Imperfect Cell around for a bit. What?
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You're right. They were Abo and Cado were BOTH equal to Frieza, not each.
If Abo or Cado ever fought tarble then Tarble probably never would of lived to tell the tale anyway so i highly doubt they ever fought.

Only some of the Z fighters even knew what Frieza's real strength was in the first place.
Krillin, Gohan, Vegeta, Piccolo, and Goku. That's it.

Mecha Frieza was quite a bit stronger than flesh Frieza and is considered a different "Frieza" entirely since he got powered up.

That's entirely False regarding the power hiding thing u said. Most of Frieza's army don't know how to COMPLETELY hide their powerlevels. They can still powerup themselves and get stronger just like every fighter in the series has shown.

Frieza is a prime example of this since he was going from 1 pct to 100 pct throughout the Goku fight in his final form.
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Super Buu is around the same strength as SS3 Gotenks. They were straight up having trouble with him and it was a good back and forth fight. At the end of the day they NEEDED SS3 while fused to even compete with Buu. It wasn't about showing off towards the end of that fight. Showing off in the beginning of that fight is what made Gotenks lose though since he wasted time.
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Even if they were stronger grunts, a grunt going from 100 to 150 doesn't mean much to people of Goku's levels at that point in the movie. Dude they straight up brought that SPECIFIC point of Goku being carless in the movie. Goku's new trainer, Whis, specifically told Goku he was too careless in his fights and it'd be the death of him someday.
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Yes Bills could of Destroyed Goku in God form right from the start. Bills already told Goku he wasn't even using his real power while Goku was only using 80 pct. (That's still quite a lot)

Beerus tried harder, but he never said he was going all out either.

BUT, at the end of the day, Beerus was looking for a FIGHT. Not a Kill. He let Goku go/live numerous times during that fight and only tried to kill him after he felt Goku showed him all he could.

We even have Akira Toiriyama rank the fighters. ==> "I suppose if Beerus’ strength is a 10, [Super Saiyan] God would be right about 6. Only, Saiyans rapidly increase in strength as they fight against strong opponents, so the longer they fought, the more that gap would shrink, and it might even be possible for them to eventually turn the tables. Incidentally, I guess Whis would be about a 15" - Akira Toriyama

source: www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/battle-gods-animanga-akira-toriyama/

Goku still needs to go through more training with Whis before he can close the gap. At that point in the movie Goku was only slightly higher than half of Bills power by word of the author himself.
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"I fought against a Super Saiyan God who looked just like THIS ONE" -Beerus
(talking about Goku on the screen)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=2k0P8nTro1c
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It's quite obvious why anybody would hold back. There no need to do more otherwise Buu could of just blown up the planet to kill Gohan. Why don't u make a case on that because it's a perfect valid and sure way to kill his enemies considering his regeneration powers?

Hell, kid buu did it and killed Mystic Gohan , Piccolo, and Gotenks (trunks and goten).
Also, the difference is that Kidd Buu is rage incarnate and Super Gotenks Buu has Piccolo's intelligence and modesty canceling out Gotenks hot headness.

It's called personality traits bro.
#204 - dontread (07/13/2015) [-]
He was still terrified of Dabura even after he found out how strong all the Z fighters were.

Supreme Kai straight up thought Gohan was the only one who was a match for Dabura until Vegeta went Majin and proved otherwise.
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Pui Pui? the master of a ten times gravity planet?
The Saiyans grew up in a high gravity planet too and most of them were weaklings.

Was Pui Pui as strong as Frieza? When did they state this?
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Goku went super saiyan with 40 tons on each limb... Initially it was going to be 10, but then the west guy decided 40 tons and King Kai just told him to do it.

Chapter 429 page 9ish..
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#15 - I figure the mittens purpose was to hide gender/race to avoid …  [+] (2 new replies) 07/07/2015 on who kkmew theis was ghiong... +1
User avatar #17 - mutantpanda (07/07/2015) [-]
The first tweet was probably typed by someone wearing mittens, that is why it is so garbled. It was probably their gimmick of the day.
User avatar #16 - propanex (07/07/2015) [-]
Good PO tbh
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#16 - The one without CGI.  [+] (14 new replies) 07/02/2015 on Durge 0
User avatar #25 - fuzzyballs (07/02/2015) [-]
alright; not even 10 minutes in and I've changed my mind
they both suck
#27 - rollfourexplain (07/02/2015) [-]
**rollfourexplain used "*roll 1, 0000-9999*"**
**rollfourexplain rolls 6,830**
>>#16

That jousting lance scene (before and around 24:00) is idiotic. I thought I was watching the strange future that is Samurai Jack for a little bit.
User avatar #28 - fuzzyballs (07/02/2015) [-]
the voice acting, the animation and the overall feeling of it just sucks
a commander that doesn't talk, just waves his hands, anakin doing the "closed eyes" thing when flying or talking to his master, a guy that jumps into a tank with a gun that can just blow holes through it, only to jump up after it explodes, and then sea dragon snake things that pull stuff apart? I don't think those things would be able to swim backwards with enough force to rip apart a futuristic space war thingamajjig
it's all just so stupid
User avatar #46 - schneidend (07/03/2015) [-]
Military squads have hand signals. That's a thing that exists.
User avatar #48 - fuzzyballs (07/03/2015) [-]
yes
because I said they didn't
because they were obviously trying to keep quiet while under fire by snipers and running into tanks and shit
because if they talked they might get spotter
yes

fuck off
User avatar #49 - schneidend (07/03/2015) [-]
Potentially allowing the enemy hear what orders you're giving sounds like a poor tactical choice. Remember, they're fighting droids, who could have all kinds of sonic filtering gizmos built into them.
User avatar #51 - fuzzyballs (07/03/2015) [-]
holy shit dude, in a space time warfare, you'd assume the helmets, who are waterproof, so probably soundproof too, would use a helmet to helmet radio

nah
it's just a shitty cartoon using shitty animations that idiots like you are trying so hard to convince themselves it makes sense
nah
I aint havin non a that
User avatar #54 - schneidend (07/03/2015) [-]
Communications like that could be intercepted.
User avatar #50 - fuzzyballs (07/03/2015) [-]
bruh
if they can hear the voices, they can see the hand signals
give up, stop trying, I made up my mind, and I'm not going to change it unless you bribe me
User avatar #52 - schneidend (07/03/2015) [-]
I don't think they can just look straight though hard cover. Projecting sound loud enough to be heard over blaster fire and explosions isn't really the same as doing silent things.

Also, you're a raging cunt. Please die.
User avatar #53 - fuzzyballs (07/03/2015) [-]
nuh
sorry for upsetting you by using actual logic here, butthead
User avatar #55 - schneidend (07/03/2015) [-]
You're not using logic. If you were using logic, you'd have thought of the several perfectly good explanations for using the hand signals that I did, instead of raging about it.
User avatar #56 - fuzzyballs (07/03/2015) [-]
shush little boy
accept your loss
User avatar #24 - fuzzyballs (07/02/2015) [-]
thanks
I wanted to watch it
#42 - Is it one of those ****** games where you have to wait …  [+] (2 new replies) 06/27/2015 on WOO -1
User avatar #45 - manofparody (06/27/2015) [-]
No. Watch the Bethesda E3 release. Todd even says, "It's not one of those crappy freemium games. You don't have to wait or pay to fast forward. Everything is built instantly."

The only thing you can buy are lunchboxes, which give you additional loot, which you can get just fine without buying them.
User avatar #44 - darknesincontrol (06/27/2015) [-]
nah not really, you can rush things with a chance to fai or succeedl to earn more money and resources, even then its pretty quick on gathering resources if you assign the right people on right job
#40 - Is the game free? I don't use Apple so I haven't seen it yet. …  [+] (4 new replies) 06/27/2015 on WOO +1
User avatar #41 - darknesincontrol (06/27/2015) [-]
its free, but you can buy some random loot boxes if you are impatient
User avatar #42 - wertologist (06/27/2015) [-]
Is it one of those shitty games where you have to wait X amount of time(usually starting at 5 minutes and grows as you level up) until you can do something else or is it something you can keep putting time into without having to wait?
User avatar #45 - manofparody (06/27/2015) [-]
No. Watch the Bethesda E3 release. Todd even says, "It's not one of those crappy freemium games. You don't have to wait or pay to fast forward. Everything is built instantly."

The only thing you can buy are lunchboxes, which give you additional loot, which you can get just fine without buying them.
User avatar #44 - darknesincontrol (06/27/2015) [-]
nah not really, you can rush things with a chance to fai or succeedl to earn more money and resources, even then its pretty quick on gathering resources if you assign the right people on right job
#58 - Anyone know a version of the JK:JA mod Movie Battles that does…  [+] (1 new reply) 06/23/2015 on 2 KInds of people in the world +1
#59 - exionmaetera (06/23/2015) [-]
Movie battles 2. its all the major movie fights against bots

items

Total unique items point value: 550 / Total items point value: 900
What do you think? Give us your opinion. Anonymous comments allowed.
User avatar #18 - wholesomeburn (09/15/2014) [-]
GREETINGS MORTAL... I REQUIRE YOUR AID... Some random guy said you knew a bunch of good mods for fallout NV, mind sharing?
User avatar #12 - sirbrentcoe (08/26/2014) [-]
thanks for the add mate, can't wait to see the next castle post!
User avatar #13 to #12 - wertologist (08/26/2014) [-]
No problem. I loved your McDisiasters as well. May be a while til the next one though. I have to be in the mood to play Sims. It takes roughly 30 minutes just to get in the game to kill people.
User avatar #15 to #13 - sirbrentcoe (08/26/2014) [-]
oh, and thanks for liking my content!
User avatar #14 to #13 - sirbrentcoe (08/26/2014) [-]
i know man, i got the sims 2 free on origin, all dlc and everything, still not interesting enough for me. i play minecraft instead, haha
User avatar #16 to #14 - wertologist (08/26/2014) [-]
I play Minecraft and Battlefront 2 (mods galore)mostly. I got a good server to play on for minecraft. If you'd like, I can PM you the IP.
User avatar #17 to #16 - sirbrentcoe (08/26/2014) [-]
sure, also a list of mods and forge version. I tried to play on Phanact's server, but i would rather eat a bullet.
User avatar #11 - thewitchking (07/10/2014) [-]
ur a faggot
User avatar #10 - iamatroll (03/06/2012) [-]
dumbass
User avatar #9 - TheFixer (03/06/2012) [-]
dumbass
User avatar #8 - dennisc (03/06/2012) [-]
Why are you such a dumbass?
#7 - anon (03/06/2012) [-]
hey dumbass
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