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#12 - fatminion (08/18/2015) [-]
wow. I love how you right-wing whack-jobs can turn tragedy into a gun rights issue.
If it were so easy to get a concealed carry permit, it wouldn't have helped out the girl in question: probably the deranged boyfriend would have had a gun then, too.
Yes, evil will happen it seems to happen more in the US , but giving everyone guns INCREASES violence and evil - it doesn't "protect" innocents from it. Just look at the stats: www.miketheburns.com/wiki-stats/us-vs-europe/
#28 - thamuz (08/18/2015) [-]
Can I just point out some flaws?
USA has a huge population compared to most of Europe. We have a very different society.
Also,if you think that guns are so bad,why have there been so many murders in the anti gun utopia of Chicago? Why,look at DC? Another anti gun utopia,why do they have such huge violent increases in crime now that these strict gun laws are in place?
I lived in NY. I left after they passed that godawful SAFE act. I had a chance to meet with one of the guys who put it on the plate to pass. I pulled up two pictures on my phone. One was a Desert Eagle .50 AE. The other was Ruger Buck Mark 22 pistol. I asked him,why is the 22 more illegal to have under this law,then a firearm designed to knock out engine blocks? He did not have an answer.
All gun laws do is prevent the good people from defending themselves. Criminals don't care. There are a lot of issues. Especially with using Clinton as a source. Are both sides flawed? Yes. But I would choose better less biased sources than Clinton.
Would I like to see gun laws changed? Yes. But you have to fix so many other issues,gun control is the easiest and the one that fires people up the most.
#34 - fatminion (08/18/2015) [-]
Can I just point out some flaws?
If you had READ the first fucking paragraph and looked at the first fucking graph in my link, you'd have seen that I compare the US with 1) all of Europe (with nearly 3x population of US), 2) Western Europe and 3) EU (both with nearly 2x population of US). I also compare PER CAPITA, so the numbers are directly comparable.
The reason why there is gun violence in the US is because of a nation-wide epidemic - you can't argue "Chicago doesn't allow guns and they have crime". Nigga please - leave city limits, buy a gun, go back into the city, shoot someone. In order for gun control to save lives, it has to be nationally mandated and enforced.
I don't know what a desert eagle .50 and Rüger buck .22 are or are designed to do, but I assume .50 bullets are bigger than .22 bullets. I'm not sure what SAFE act is, but like I said - you can't just make gun laws in one place and not in the other. And you need SERIOUS reform, not just "hey, let's ban all .22 pistols in NY state."
If it were true that "all gun laws do is prevent the good guys from having guns" then it would be reflected in the numbers. But it's not. The OPPOSITE is true: The US has 88.8 guns per 100 residents, whereas Western Europe only 20.7 per 100. That is 4x as many guns per 100 residents. When we look at firearm-related homicide (murder), then we see that 3.55 out of 100,000 deaths are firearm-related murder in the US. Western Europe? That figure is 0.13. 0.13. That is a full 27 times smaller. Let that sink in: strict-as-fuck gun laws in Western Europe + lower gun ownership = nearly 30x less likely to be murdered with a gun.
But what about all murders - even ones without guns? All you gotta do is scroll down on my page and see that the US has 4.7 of every 100,000 deaths marked down as a homicide. That means 3.55/4.7 = 75% of all homicides are gun-related. Let's look what Western Europe has... 0.35. That is 13 times less than the US. So all your "people will always find a way to kill someone and giving people guns helps them protect themselves" falls apart when we look at the statistics. The statistics clearly show that gun ownership, manufacture and law play a HUGE role in preventing homicide.
Of course I'll give you the culture thing - people have it good in W. Europe: free health care, free education, extended maternity leave, much more paid vacation time, better unemployment benefits. There is literally no reason to be angry and steal or kill people in Europe. Even if someone cheats on you or steals your car or something, you just don't generally kill or even pull a gun on someone because the sentence for such violent acts is way higher in the EU. They don't tolerate social deviants who like to use violence to solve their problems. It is simply not tolerated.
So go ahead and keep spreading your propaganda about why arming people is the solution to a violent society, and I'll continue spreading the statistics that say otherwise. I hope you mean it when you say "gun laws should be changed". I also hope you realize I agree that there are other social factors that need to be addressed (free healthcare and education, less corruption in politics/police, harsher anti-trust laws, higher corporate taxes), but the universal gun control is a no-brainer: national registry, mandatory psychological evaluations, search and seizure under suspect of illegal weapons ownership will really go a long way in getting guns out of the hands of criminals.
Now I'm hungry for a burrito for some reason. Peace out, man.
#42 - thamuz (08/18/2015) [-]
A .50 AE round,is a half inch,or roughly 14mm. A 22 is a 5.58ishmm projectile. One is used for small game hunting and target shooting. The other is used to punch holes in engine blocks.
The DE was originally designed for Israeli officers to stop cars from charging through road blocks. The Ruger 22 Buck Mark pistol was designed to introduce new shooters to the sport as well as a training aid to learn to handle a firearm.
The SAFE act,if you actually did some research on your part,basically said all weapons regardless of caliber are limited to 10 rounds. The only exception is tube 22 magazines and those are the kind seen on old Marlin Model 60s.
So here's a scenario. I have a family heirloom. An M1 Mini Carbine I had gotten from my Great Uncle. It was his service weapon in WW2. However,under NY Laws,that rifle is illegal now. Because it has a 20 rd detachable magazine. Now,mind you,the weapon has been disabled(as is non operable at the moment.) but it's still illegal. I either have to sell the weapon,or the magazines to an out of state party or I get arrested. However,even most Glock pistols are now illegal unless sold with the new pinned magazines(that are proven to have problems.)
The picture shows how many counties opposed the NY SAFE act. The ones in Red who want it? Those are big cities. Albany,NYC. Want to know something even more interesting? Companies like Remington,Khar Arms,ATI, and Serbu have moved their assets OUT of the state. Serbu Arms will NOT sell to New York or it's LE citing that under SAFE act,their products count as 'assault rifles'. Sure,Remington has added jobs and more equipment to it's Illion factory,however,they do not produce anything that counts under the new laws.
So under the SAFE act,you just cost people jobs. And what happens when people are poor,hungry and without the money to get basic needs? You get that spiral.
Here's an even more amusing fact: There was a law passed down I think in GA. The head of house HAS to own a firearm by law. Guess what? Violent crime dropped like a rock.
Are guns bad? No. They are a tool. Just like the paintbrush. You don't blame a car for the driver being drunk. You don't blame a spoon for making a person fat. But when it comes to guns it's all hooplah and bullshit.
Those places that have such high crime rates(also tend to have increased restrictions on gun laws) often have very low employment and education. They also tend to be predominantly Democrat(however,at this point I am starting to wonder if this 'Progressive' stuff the Democratic Party has been trying to shovel down everyone's throats is really that good for a population..) To fix the problem of violent crime,you have to go to the root of the cause. Gun laws do nothing to those who will not abide by the law. You have to fix the problem. All gun control issues do is divide a population to gather votes. Politicians do not want to fix the root of the cause. See my comment below about Choosing your Own Statistics.
Both sides need to set aside the whole gun control problem and put their efforts to fixing the more important ones. The economy. The education system(Common Core is so fucking terrible. Look that one up. Shit doesn't make sense). The prison reform system. Etc. There are more pressing matters than to if that black rifle is illegal or not.
#25 - fatminion (08/18/2015) [-]
oh my god. Literally the VERY FIRST statistic is bogus and they even cop to it:
* Based upon Kleck & Gertz estimates of 2.5 million defensive gun uses per year (see source #2). A similar study in 1994 under President Clinton (Source) found this number to be 1.5 million, which would result in guns being used over 47x more often to defend a life than to take one.
According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, about 436,000 crimes were committed with a firearm in 2008 (Source). This would mean guns are used 5.7 or 3.4 times (using Kleck or Clinton respectively) more often to defend against a crime than to commit one.
They admit they massaged the fuck out of the stats to meet their needs.
And beyond that, the idea of controlling firearm and ammunition ownership and prroduction is to limit the number of firearms and munition in the hands of potential "bad guys". If you're an upstanding citizen with no history of violence or felony, then you'll likely be able to own a gun or two. And you can go to a shooting range and shoot your gun. But if you're an angry nigger with no job, you won't pass the psychological test to get a gun. Your obvious counter-argument here would be "yeah, but angry niggers will ALWAYS find guns or they can just 3D print one". Well, under heavier manufacture regulations and decreased ownership, there simply would be fewer guns in circulation, meaning the black market price skyrockets. Not only that, but the police would have the right to search and seizure under suspicion of having an illegal weapon. This means they could act on tips or just search someone who is acting suspicious and has a baggy shirt on and gang paraphernalia and might have a gun. Not only THAT, but ammunition will be severely controlled. You couldn't be able to purchase ammo without a proper gun license, and then you can only purchase ammo for a weapon you own, and you can't stockpile ammo.
I tell you, man, if you looked at MY statistics of how gun culture actually increases murder rate and violent crime rate, then you can really just ignore your "more guns = more chance of protection against people with guns". Just think about it.
Chemotherapy uses radiation to kill cancer cells, but radiation can also cause cancer. Is it better to give everyone radiation therapy because it increases the chances of killing potential cancers? NO WAY!!! You might just GIVE yourself cancer in the process!! The same can apply to weapons: should we be giving every Tom, Dick and Harry a gun just because every Alfonzo, Daquane and Taquisha has one? NO! I show in my research that more arms = more crime!
Sorry, bro - I will NEVER understand a culture that promotes gun ownership of protecting its citizens through logical safety laws. Proposed gun laws will keep guns out of the hands of potential criminals and will still allow you to go skeet shooting.
#31 - containlettersonly (08/18/2015) [-]
There are roughly 32,000 deaths a year is the US and declining from Gun Violence
60% Are suicides thats 19,200
3% are accidentals that's 960
4% are justified that's 1,280
33% are homicides that's 10,560
80% of homicides are gang related. That's 8,448
>That leaves 2,112 in a society of 312 million people.
>That leaves a 0.00010256410256 chance of death by gun.
>0.000009846153846 if you don't hang out in the hood, are not planning on committing suicide, and not planning a crime.
#36 - fatminion (08/18/2015) [-]
you're still 27x more likely to be murdered in Western Europe than in the US. And that's only with 4x as many guns per 100 people.
I know the US is still safer than many 2nd and third-world nations, but as far as first-world nations go, the US is dangerous as fuck (rather, certain areas of the country are dangerous as fuck). I grew up in Maine where everyone and his sister has a gun and goes hunting or skeet shooting. No big deal as nobody really commits crimes in Maine. Under my proposed legislation, probably everyone in Maine who is a hunter and over 18 and without a criminal history will be able to keep their guns. The goal of good gun legislation is to keep guns out of the hands of potentially dangerous people and make it hard for a black market to exist:
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