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kotor

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Date Signed Up:4/02/2012
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Chair, trains, zebra, op, sauce, cup, 420, /b/, the game, random, dig bick

latest user's comments

#1156220 - What? But the plane scene is BEFORE he develops as a character…  [+] (5 replies) 05/31/2015 on Anime & Manga - anime... 0
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#1156223 - thekame (05/31/2015) [-]
No, shooting the plane doesn't show why he's flawed. He's flawed because he simply weight the lives of people. The only flaw the plane shooting scene showed was how bad he was at decision making.
User avatar
#1156227 - kotor (05/31/2015) [-]
But that's his flaw - he weighs the lives of people, m8. The plane scene is an example, as well as that moment when he 'kills' Ilya or whatever he did, it's been 3-4 years already.

It all ties in with him realizing the value of a single person, something he never did before.
User avatar
#1156229 - thekame (05/31/2015) [-]
But the plane shooting scene never showed that flaw, because anybody that looked at it was too busy wondering why he didn't just get the mage association to surround the plane in it's landing place.
User avatar
#1156231 - kotor (05/31/2015) [-]
you're overthinking it. Leave the Frodo memes aside. It's a cheap drama device, but it essentially shows that he is, as I said, pulling the liver way too early when he tries to solve the trolley problem.
User avatar
#1156235 - thekame (05/31/2015) [-]
>cheap drama device
1:0 for /stay night ;^) this is just a joke

>it essentially shows that he is, as I said, pulling the liver way too early when he tries to solve the trolley problem.
But that isn't what his flaw is supposed to be, the point of the story is that his entire ideal is flawed, not that he makes decides to quickly. Anyway, let's leave that scene aside for now because as you said It's a cheap drama device, and god knows /stay night has enough of those.

>as well as that moment when he 'kills' Ilya
The moment he kills Ilya had absolutely nothing to do with that part of his morality though, as it probably represented him putting the world above himself. and has little to do with his utilitarianism ideals.

The only scene in which his ideals get challenged, and really the only scene in which he changes as a character, is the scene in which the grail gives him the riddle about the two boats. Yet even that riddle didn't actually prove what it send out to prove, because once again it only showed that his ideals only work in short term, and in long term he would never save the majority of people. This is related to the flaw of his ideal, but not actually the flaw of his ideal, that he deciphers anyway.

the last two were good scene's though, I admit that.

Have you read the LN, because like I said, it could just be because ufotable is not really that great of a studio. Maybe his internal monologue or something makes it make sense.
#1156218 - I can simplify Shirou like that as well. I can also pass every…  [+] (4 replies) 05/31/2015 on Anime & Manga - anime... 0
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#1156221 - thekame (05/31/2015) [-]
You can, but I never claimed shirou was a good character, so it would be pointless.

>you're making it sound as if Kerry got the right concept all along
No I don't, I never even touched upon anything like that.

>A lot of development comes from understanding your flaws first.
Which he never does, nice try.
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#1156224 - kotor (05/31/2015) [-]
Are you literally trolling me? Did you seriously not understand the entire scene where he's desperately trying to save Shirou and why he does it?
User avatar
#1156225 - thekame (05/31/2015) [-]
That is a /stay night scene before it is a /zero scene though. Nice try though.
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#1156228 - kotor (05/31/2015) [-]
ye, whatever.
#1156212 - I will agree that it's probably annoying to see people watchin…  [+] (8 replies) 05/31/2015 on Anime & Manga - anime... 0
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#1156219 - thekame (05/31/2015) [-]
>and a more developed main character who's actually going through a conflict of his ideals
Except that kiritsuge never has a conflict about his ideals, at least not in the anime. Maybe there was a very deep internal monologue going in his head but ufotable at least chose to ignore that, it wouldn't have been the first time they fucked up.

>ho has problems put in front of him and has to solve them
Ye, he is very good at that I noticed, shooting that plane was the best course of action if you are literally mentally challenged kerry probably is . Kerry solves nothing, he just rides on the fact that he is skilled in anti magi fighting.

As for your critique of shirou, it's true.
User avatar
#1156220 - kotor (05/31/2015) [-]
What? But the plane scene is BEFORE he develops as a character or rather - realizes his mistake. Shooting the plane shows why he's flawed, it's an example.
User avatar
#1156223 - thekame (05/31/2015) [-]
No, shooting the plane doesn't show why he's flawed. He's flawed because he simply weight the lives of people. The only flaw the plane shooting scene showed was how bad he was at decision making.
User avatar
#1156227 - kotor (05/31/2015) [-]
But that's his flaw - he weighs the lives of people, m8. The plane scene is an example, as well as that moment when he 'kills' Ilya or whatever he did, it's been 3-4 years already.

It all ties in with him realizing the value of a single person, something he never did before.
User avatar
#1156229 - thekame (05/31/2015) [-]
But the plane shooting scene never showed that flaw, because anybody that looked at it was too busy wondering why he didn't just get the mage association to surround the plane in it's landing place.
User avatar
#1156231 - kotor (05/31/2015) [-]
you're overthinking it. Leave the Frodo memes aside. It's a cheap drama device, but it essentially shows that he is, as I said, pulling the liver way too early when he tries to solve the trolley problem.
User avatar
#1156235 - thekame (05/31/2015) [-]
>cheap drama device
1:0 for /stay night ;^) this is just a joke

>it essentially shows that he is, as I said, pulling the liver way too early when he tries to solve the trolley problem.
But that isn't what his flaw is supposed to be, the point of the story is that his entire ideal is flawed, not that he makes decides to quickly. Anyway, let's leave that scene aside for now because as you said It's a cheap drama device, and god knows /stay night has enough of those.

>as well as that moment when he 'kills' Ilya
The moment he kills Ilya had absolutely nothing to do with that part of his morality though, as it probably represented him putting the world above himself. and has little to do with his utilitarianism ideals.

The only scene in which his ideals get challenged, and really the only scene in which he changes as a character, is the scene in which the grail gives him the riddle about the two boats. Yet even that riddle didn't actually prove what it send out to prove, because once again it only showed that his ideals only work in short term, and in long term he would never save the majority of people. This is related to the flaw of his ideal, but not actually the flaw of his ideal, that he deciphers anyway.

the last two were good scene's though, I admit that.

Have you read the LN, because like I said, it could just be because ufotable is not really that great of a studio. Maybe his internal monologue or something makes it make sense.
User avatar
#1156215 - kotor (05/31/2015) [-]
Another superior part about F/Z is that Heroic Spirits/Servants have dialogues befitting their position. It feels real, it feels "correct" that HEROIC SPIRITS would be having conversations about conquering, about how to be a king, about shit like that. And not about how to cook, about marriage and about romance
#1156211 - I mean, let's just ignore any sort of arguments like "WHA…  [+] (10 replies) 05/31/2015 on Anime & Manga - anime... 0
User avatar
#1156226 - thekame (05/31/2015) [-]
I wouldn't say that, because /zero is canon by Nasu's decision. I might as well be mentally challenged if I were to make a claim like that.
User avatar
#1156212 - kotor (05/31/2015) [-]
I will agree that it's probably annoying to see people watching Zero because it looks better on paper and it's one of those cases where people judge the book by its cover, but in this case it does turn out that F/Z is a better executed story with more interesting themes drawn to it and a more developed main character who's actually going through a conflict of his ideals, who has problems put in front of him and has to solve them, who has to justify his actions.

Shirou never goes through that shit, Shirou always overcomes any problem so easily and so anti-climatically that you think "woah, was that really hard?". Most internal conflicts Shirou is having or should be having are passed off as comedy and 'le pretending to be thick man' bullshit.
User avatar
#1156219 - thekame (05/31/2015) [-]
>and a more developed main character who's actually going through a conflict of his ideals
Except that kiritsuge never has a conflict about his ideals, at least not in the anime. Maybe there was a very deep internal monologue going in his head but ufotable at least chose to ignore that, it wouldn't have been the first time they fucked up.

>ho has problems put in front of him and has to solve them
Ye, he is very good at that I noticed, shooting that plane was the best course of action if you are literally mentally challenged kerry probably is . Kerry solves nothing, he just rides on the fact that he is skilled in anti magi fighting.

As for your critique of shirou, it's true.
User avatar
#1156220 - kotor (05/31/2015) [-]
What? But the plane scene is BEFORE he develops as a character or rather - realizes his mistake. Shooting the plane shows why he's flawed, it's an example.
User avatar
#1156223 - thekame (05/31/2015) [-]
No, shooting the plane doesn't show why he's flawed. He's flawed because he simply weight the lives of people. The only flaw the plane shooting scene showed was how bad he was at decision making.
User avatar
#1156227 - kotor (05/31/2015) [-]
But that's his flaw - he weighs the lives of people, m8. The plane scene is an example, as well as that moment when he 'kills' Ilya or whatever he did, it's been 3-4 years already.

It all ties in with him realizing the value of a single person, something he never did before.
User avatar
#1156229 - thekame (05/31/2015) [-]
But the plane shooting scene never showed that flaw, because anybody that looked at it was too busy wondering why he didn't just get the mage association to surround the plane in it's landing place.
User avatar
#1156231 - kotor (05/31/2015) [-]
you're overthinking it. Leave the Frodo memes aside. It's a cheap drama device, but it essentially shows that he is, as I said, pulling the liver way too early when he tries to solve the trolley problem.
User avatar
#1156235 - thekame (05/31/2015) [-]
>cheap drama device
1:0 for /stay night ;^) this is just a joke

>it essentially shows that he is, as I said, pulling the liver way too early when he tries to solve the trolley problem.
But that isn't what his flaw is supposed to be, the point of the story is that his entire ideal is flawed, not that he makes decides to quickly. Anyway, let's leave that scene aside for now because as you said It's a cheap drama device, and god knows /stay night has enough of those.

>as well as that moment when he 'kills' Ilya
The moment he kills Ilya had absolutely nothing to do with that part of his morality though, as it probably represented him putting the world above himself. and has little to do with his utilitarianism ideals.

The only scene in which his ideals get challenged, and really the only scene in which he changes as a character, is the scene in which the grail gives him the riddle about the two boats. Yet even that riddle didn't actually prove what it send out to prove, because once again it only showed that his ideals only work in short term, and in long term he would never save the majority of people. This is related to the flaw of his ideal, but not actually the flaw of his ideal, that he deciphers anyway.

the last two were good scene's though, I admit that.

Have you read the LN, because like I said, it could just be because ufotable is not really that great of a studio. Maybe his internal monologue or something makes it make sense.
User avatar
#1156215 - kotor (05/31/2015) [-]
Another superior part about F/Z is that Heroic Spirits/Servants have dialogues befitting their position. It feels real, it feels "correct" that HEROIC SPIRITS would be having conversations about conquering, about how to be a king, about shit like that. And not about how to cook, about marriage and about romance
#1156210 - Either I missed some very important deep and masterful thing a…  [+] (18 replies) 05/31/2015 on Anime & Manga - anime... 0
User avatar
#1156230 - facetiousrunner (05/31/2015) [-]
the vn is shit

the writer is shit. it's not the animators. hes literally just bad
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#1156214 - thekame (05/31/2015) [-]
I never use the term secondary with a negative connotation against people who watched /zero first, I only do so when they are jerking themselves of of how right they were to watch something in the wrong order.

>Kiritsugu is executed better as a character than any F/SN character
>Kerry
>2deep4u suffering character
>better executed than anything
I could agree with the statement that /zero is better, I don't but I can at least understand why a person would say that. But the claim that Kerry is a good character is literally a meme at this point.

>to Kiritsugu, allowing his wife to sacrifice herself and complete the Grail is a betrayal towards her love, no matter what others say. However, it is necessary that he does not hesitate in this betrayal. To Kiritsugu, his sexual relationship with Maiya is a rehearsal before this betrayal, a form of self-abuse to steel his nerves while walking down this path.
This is a well executed character according to you?
User avatar
#1156218 - kotor (05/31/2015) [-]
I can simplify Shirou like that as well. I can also pass everything off as 'meme' because I don't like it and wrap it up with some ironic oversimplified perception of Shirou's/anyone's personality.

You're simplying the complex issue of intent vs. results, of means vs. ends, which figures in F/Z. In fact, you're making it sound as if Kerry got the right concept all along. No, he's a flawed character. Yet the way he's coming to understanding that he was being always rash, he was always 'pulling the liver' in the 'trolley' problem too early does show development on his part. A lot of development comes from understanding your flaws first.
User avatar
#1156221 - thekame (05/31/2015) [-]
You can, but I never claimed shirou was a good character, so it would be pointless.

>you're making it sound as if Kerry got the right concept all along
No I don't, I never even touched upon anything like that.

>A lot of development comes from understanding your flaws first.
Which he never does, nice try.
User avatar
#1156224 - kotor (05/31/2015) [-]
Are you literally trolling me? Did you seriously not understand the entire scene where he's desperately trying to save Shirou and why he does it?
User avatar
#1156225 - thekame (05/31/2015) [-]
That is a /stay night scene before it is a /zero scene though. Nice try though.
User avatar
#1156228 - kotor (05/31/2015) [-]
ye, whatever.
User avatar
#1156211 - kotor (05/31/2015) [-]
I mean, let's just ignore any sort of arguments like "WHAT NASU THOUGHT", "WHAT THE FATE FRANCHISE WAS ALWAYS LIKE" and "MUH FANBASE" and focus specifically on the creations themselves, as standalone stories.
User avatar
#1156226 - thekame (05/31/2015) [-]
I wouldn't say that, because /zero is canon by Nasu's decision. I might as well be mentally challenged if I were to make a claim like that.
User avatar
#1156212 - kotor (05/31/2015) [-]
I will agree that it's probably annoying to see people watching Zero because it looks better on paper and it's one of those cases where people judge the book by its cover, but in this case it does turn out that F/Z is a better executed story with more interesting themes drawn to it and a more developed main character who's actually going through a conflict of his ideals, who has problems put in front of him and has to solve them, who has to justify his actions.

Shirou never goes through that shit, Shirou always overcomes any problem so easily and so anti-climatically that you think "woah, was that really hard?". Most internal conflicts Shirou is having or should be having are passed off as comedy and 'le pretending to be thick man' bullshit.
User avatar
#1156219 - thekame (05/31/2015) [-]
>and a more developed main character who's actually going through a conflict of his ideals
Except that kiritsuge never has a conflict about his ideals, at least not in the anime. Maybe there was a very deep internal monologue going in his head but ufotable at least chose to ignore that, it wouldn't have been the first time they fucked up.

>ho has problems put in front of him and has to solve them
Ye, he is very good at that I noticed, shooting that plane was the best course of action if you are literally mentally challenged kerry probably is . Kerry solves nothing, he just rides on the fact that he is skilled in anti magi fighting.

As for your critique of shirou, it's true.
User avatar
#1156220 - kotor (05/31/2015) [-]
What? But the plane scene is BEFORE he develops as a character or rather - realizes his mistake. Shooting the plane shows why he's flawed, it's an example.
User avatar
#1156223 - thekame (05/31/2015) [-]
No, shooting the plane doesn't show why he's flawed. He's flawed because he simply weight the lives of people. The only flaw the plane shooting scene showed was how bad he was at decision making.
User avatar
#1156227 - kotor (05/31/2015) [-]
But that's his flaw - he weighs the lives of people, m8. The plane scene is an example, as well as that moment when he 'kills' Ilya or whatever he did, it's been 3-4 years already.

It all ties in with him realizing the value of a single person, something he never did before.
User avatar
#1156229 - thekame (05/31/2015) [-]
But the plane shooting scene never showed that flaw, because anybody that looked at it was too busy wondering why he didn't just get the mage association to surround the plane in it's landing place.
User avatar
#1156231 - kotor (05/31/2015) [-]
you're overthinking it. Leave the Frodo memes aside. It's a cheap drama device, but it essentially shows that he is, as I said, pulling the liver way too early when he tries to solve the trolley problem.
User avatar
#1156235 - thekame (05/31/2015) [-]
>cheap drama device
1:0 for /stay night ;^) this is just a joke

>it essentially shows that he is, as I said, pulling the liver way too early when he tries to solve the trolley problem.
But that isn't what his flaw is supposed to be, the point of the story is that his entire ideal is flawed, not that he makes decides to quickly. Anyway, let's leave that scene aside for now because as you said It's a cheap drama device, and god knows /stay night has enough of those.

>as well as that moment when he 'kills' Ilya
The moment he kills Ilya had absolutely nothing to do with that part of his morality though, as it probably represented him putting the world above himself. and has little to do with his utilitarianism ideals.

The only scene in which his ideals get challenged, and really the only scene in which he changes as a character, is the scene in which the grail gives him the riddle about the two boats. Yet even that riddle didn't actually prove what it send out to prove, because once again it only showed that his ideals only work in short term, and in long term he would never save the majority of people. This is related to the flaw of his ideal, but not actually the flaw of his ideal, that he deciphers anyway.

the last two were good scene's though, I admit that.

Have you read the LN, because like I said, it could just be because ufotable is not really that great of a studio. Maybe his internal monologue or something makes it make sense.
User avatar
#1156215 - kotor (05/31/2015) [-]
Another superior part about F/Z is that Heroic Spirits/Servants have dialogues befitting their position. It feels real, it feels "correct" that HEROIC SPIRITS would be having conversations about conquering, about how to be a king, about shit like that. And not about how to cook, about marriage and about romance
#1156207 - watched the Deen F/SN first, read the VN after, watched F/Z an…  [+] (1 reply) 05/31/2015 on Anime & Manga - anime... 0
User avatar
#1156209 - thekame (05/31/2015) [-]
The only acceptable path for watching fate.