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#47 - if she initiates it and doesn't ask then she risks raping you …  [+] (3 new replies) 04/18/2014 on Take a stand -3
User avatar #58 - hargleblarg (04/18/2014) [-]
I'd just like to chip-in on this little debate with something.

Throughout this whole thing it's implied that only men rape. Yes, it's mostly men who are rapists, but there are plenty of women rapists too. Why not teach women not to rape?
User avatar #53 - captainfuckitall (04/18/2014) [-]
(Continued)

Just as well, men can also go to jail due to false rape accusations, and many men have. Considering the very flimsy definitions of rape, what counts as rape, and the general lack of evidence that is often associated with rape (as it generally happens in private areas and the woman can always refuse to give D.N.A. tests). I mean, people have gone to prison over rape claims 40 years after the rapes occurred (that's not to say the claims were false, it just means the amount of evidence required is not substantial, as it's common knowledge that the law and jury's nearly always favour the woman over the man).

Didn't you say earlier that it was often someone close to the woman who rapes her?

Another person before you first claimed that 30% of rapes go unreported, then he claimed 70%, now you're claiming 60%. Do you see what I mean when I say it is unreliable and should not be included?

I would like to see those comments made 'often, please; as I have only ever found a few out of a hundred that actually support the rapist over the woman and they tend to be down-voted into oblivion (provided they're not trolls, of course...). There IS no rape culture because that doesn't happen, I have only ever heard of "what were you wearing at the time" in a rape case on a fictional TV show. Nobody blames the victim; at most, people DO say "well what do you expect", when she puts herself into a bad situation and then gets raped. Again, that's not to say they're BLAMING her, they're saying she could have been smarter, which is true.

I would like to see those statistics of yours, as they seem extraordinarily high, and there is absolutely no way they would be true WITHOUT literally thousands of well-documented and cited reports to back them up. I mean, good lords, I've known hundreds if not thousands of women throughout my life and can count on one hand how many have been raped, and that's me taking their word for it.

No, what we need to do is nail down what "Rape" is.
User avatar #51 - captainfuckitall (04/18/2014) [-]
Then why is it so that a woman can consent to sex and then take it back later and the man can still be tried for rape? Are there some cases where yes doesn't actually mean yes? Should these people really be treated as adults?

That's true, but people would still call you an idiot for not wearing a seat-belt. Again, nobody would blame you, but they WOULD be right in saying you could have prepared yourself better.

But again, should it not then be the other person's responsibility to give a clear and concise answer? I mean, if I asked if I could have some food and you said "Hmm, well, I'm not sure, maybe, I'm okay with you having some now, but might not be okay with it later", that would just be retarded. So if you go to another country and accidentally break the law, or do something negative by cultural standards, you should receive full punishment/be ostracized? Because the majority of England, who lets its immigrants get away with crimes all the time due to cultural differences, would disagree with you. Education is important, but again, you cannot go out of your way to learn something you do not know exists, nor can you be taught something by a teacher who doesn't know it exists. If all men must take a class to know "How not to rape", all women should take one on "How to say no".

8-12%, actually. You're still right, though; 88-92% still is much higher, and I'm not making excuses for rapists or saying victims should be marginalized. I'm saying rape accusations happen. We also cannot bring up the amount of rapes unreported, as by the very nature of them going unreported, you CAN'T report them. All we CAN report is the amount of rape claims that are false. And it does harm people, actually; plenty of people have had their lives ruined because of false-rape accusations, because even HAVING an accusation thrown against you can be the difference between getting that high paying job or being fired, because why would anyone want a potential rapist on their payroll?
#27 - the responsibility is on the person initiating sex to get cons…  [+] (7 new replies) 04/18/2014 on Take a stand -4
User avatar #30 - captainfuckitall (04/18/2014) [-]
(Continued)

But, ya see, many men DO know what consent is. That's just it, and that's why they get so offended when people insist on treating them as if they're ruthless animals based on instinct that need to be taught "it's not okay!" for literally EVERY man. It's no different than teaching all black people not to steal, or all Indians not to drink, or all Asians not to drive so shitty. It's insulting and it's degrading for anyone to even think "Teach men not to rape!" is okay.

I'd like to see those reports on that. Surely, with the popularity of rape and rape statistics, you can provide them again

You think?
www.returnofkings.com/22079/the-truth-about-false-rape-accusations-that-all-men-should-know
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape#FBI_statistics
www.theforensicexaminer.com/archive/spring09/15/
www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/economic-intelligence/2013/10/24/statistics-dont-back-up-claims-about-rape-culture
www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2009/10/how_often_do_women_falsely_cry_rape.html
straightstatistics.org/article/crying-rape-falsely-rare-or-common

In case you don't want to read all of those, it basically comes to 8-12% of all rape allegations are fabricated. A bit over twice as much as any other crime

And who in this whole wide world would EVER shove a rape-claim under the table because "Oh, she deserved it". Do you even HEAR yourself? Do you know how many people would have their jobs and lives ruined if they did that? Do you honestly believe that the majority of men believe women 'deserve' to be raped?

One of the biggest reasons rape is considered the 'crime of crimes' is because, if there's no evidence, it basically comes down to a battle of "He said/She said", and it's a common fact that juries will nearly always support the woman over the man in legal battles. Not to mention it is the fault of feminists themselves that the term 'rape' is so subjective when it shouldn't be
#86 - BloodAwaits (04/18/2014) [-]
Stop, stop, stop! STOP USING ALL YOUR LOGIC.
User avatar #29 - captainfuckitall (04/18/2014) [-]
But if 'no' comes in different forms, doesn't consent do the same? If she takes her shirt off and starts grinding against me, I'm not gonna ask "do...do you wanna have sex now?", I'm gonna roll with it and start feeling her up. If that happens, should I get slapped as she screams "I didn't give consent!", no, because she DID, if you can give a "non-verbal" no, you can also give a non-verbal consent.

What if she initiates it, does that mean I don't have to ask, but she does or else it's rape?

If they don't feel comfortable saying no, they shouldn't be out. I'm serious. If you 'weren't comfortable saying no' to being an accessory to murder, you would still be tried. Don't you fucking start that bullshit. Again, if you say it is my responsibility to ask for consent, it is HERS to say 'no'. And who the fuck doesn't realize they're allowed to say no? Really? Do you honestly mean I have to tell her every time "now, you don't have to have sex with me just because *List off every single reason I can think of that she might feel obligated to have sex with me*" before we have sex?

Nobody is blaming anyone, and only idiots actually believe "victim blaming" is a cultural thing. What people REALLY say is that shit happens, and you are nearly always able to prevent or postpone it somehow. Does that make it your fault? No, absolutely not, but you CAN be smarter about things. Like a person looking both ways before they cross the street; if they don't and get hit by a car, are they at fault? No. Are they an idiot? Yes. Because shit happens and until this world is perfect, we need to look out for ourselves.

What's wrong with educating women on growing a spine and saying "no"? It's the exact same logic.

I wouldn't, which is why I'm not a filthy criminal, and guess what, if I WAS a filthy criminal, I really wouldn't care.

And it's also simple enough to say 'no'. You seem to be defending women for something that's just as easy for them to do as it is for men to do. That is, speak.
User avatar #47 - goodcheese (04/18/2014) [-]
if she initiates it and doesn't ask then she risks raping you yes. Again the only way KNOW that someone wants sex is to ask. people have consensual sex all the time where nobody asked consent but that's a risk that the person initiating sex takes. The only way to know for sure.

and yes we should encourage being safe always. but lets say i get hit by a drunk driver and i'm not wearing a seat belt and i get very badly injured, i could've been safer but it never stopped the drunk driver.

and yes most rape and sexual assault curriculums emphasize communication on both parts but again if someone is initiating sex it is there responsibility to ask

if i'm offering food you can take it. if i'm not you have to ask. you wouldn't try and take it without asking and just hope i don't say no. and in regards to your other comment, ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking the law, everyone knows that. which emphasizes the importance of education.

and we can have a statistics battle, yes 2-8% is a lot but 92-98% is a whole lot more. not to mention there is a difference between falsely reported rape and false accusations. the majority of that 2-8% statistic means a woman made up an attack against an unspecified aggressor which harms nobody but the woman's credibility. it's very rare for a woman to actually name an individual as someone who raped her. and the 60% of unreported cases are pretty shocking. and many comments suggest that one deserves rape such as "what was she wearing" "what did she expect" etc. these create a culture where we focus on women and how they can prevent someone from raping them and taking the focus off of people who actually commit rape.

the teach men not to rape is not meant to assume all men are rapists but to bring attention to the fact that there are quite a lot of men who do rape. 1 in 6 women and 1 in 33 men are victims of a rape or sexual assault in their lifetime so it does happen a lot. we need to educate people on what consent means.
User avatar #58 - hargleblarg (04/18/2014) [-]
I'd just like to chip-in on this little debate with something.

Throughout this whole thing it's implied that only men rape. Yes, it's mostly men who are rapists, but there are plenty of women rapists too. Why not teach women not to rape?
User avatar #53 - captainfuckitall (04/18/2014) [-]
(Continued)

Just as well, men can also go to jail due to false rape accusations, and many men have. Considering the very flimsy definitions of rape, what counts as rape, and the general lack of evidence that is often associated with rape (as it generally happens in private areas and the woman can always refuse to give D.N.A. tests). I mean, people have gone to prison over rape claims 40 years after the rapes occurred (that's not to say the claims were false, it just means the amount of evidence required is not substantial, as it's common knowledge that the law and jury's nearly always favour the woman over the man).

Didn't you say earlier that it was often someone close to the woman who rapes her?

Another person before you first claimed that 30% of rapes go unreported, then he claimed 70%, now you're claiming 60%. Do you see what I mean when I say it is unreliable and should not be included?

I would like to see those comments made 'often, please; as I have only ever found a few out of a hundred that actually support the rapist over the woman and they tend to be down-voted into oblivion (provided they're not trolls, of course...). There IS no rape culture because that doesn't happen, I have only ever heard of "what were you wearing at the time" in a rape case on a fictional TV show. Nobody blames the victim; at most, people DO say "well what do you expect", when she puts herself into a bad situation and then gets raped. Again, that's not to say they're BLAMING her, they're saying she could have been smarter, which is true.

I would like to see those statistics of yours, as they seem extraordinarily high, and there is absolutely no way they would be true WITHOUT literally thousands of well-documented and cited reports to back them up. I mean, good lords, I've known hundreds if not thousands of women throughout my life and can count on one hand how many have been raped, and that's me taking their word for it.

No, what we need to do is nail down what "Rape" is.
User avatar #51 - captainfuckitall (04/18/2014) [-]
Then why is it so that a woman can consent to sex and then take it back later and the man can still be tried for rape? Are there some cases where yes doesn't actually mean yes? Should these people really be treated as adults?

That's true, but people would still call you an idiot for not wearing a seat-belt. Again, nobody would blame you, but they WOULD be right in saying you could have prepared yourself better.

But again, should it not then be the other person's responsibility to give a clear and concise answer? I mean, if I asked if I could have some food and you said "Hmm, well, I'm not sure, maybe, I'm okay with you having some now, but might not be okay with it later", that would just be retarded. So if you go to another country and accidentally break the law, or do something negative by cultural standards, you should receive full punishment/be ostracized? Because the majority of England, who lets its immigrants get away with crimes all the time due to cultural differences, would disagree with you. Education is important, but again, you cannot go out of your way to learn something you do not know exists, nor can you be taught something by a teacher who doesn't know it exists. If all men must take a class to know "How not to rape", all women should take one on "How to say no".

8-12%, actually. You're still right, though; 88-92% still is much higher, and I'm not making excuses for rapists or saying victims should be marginalized. I'm saying rape accusations happen. We also cannot bring up the amount of rapes unreported, as by the very nature of them going unreported, you CAN'T report them. All we CAN report is the amount of rape claims that are false. And it does harm people, actually; plenty of people have had their lives ruined because of false-rape accusations, because even HAVING an accusation thrown against you can be the difference between getting that high paying job or being fired, because why would anyone want a potential rapist on their payroll?
#24 - yea i saw that infographic as well. too bad the cdc 04/18/2014 on Take a stand -1
#12 - actually a lot of people don't understand what consent is. if …  [+] (42 new replies) 04/18/2014 on Take a stand -28
#111 - anonymous (04/18/2014) [-]
Rape is something obvious, not vague... It's not something that should be picked up just like that. If a woman does not actually want sex, but doesn't say anything, then how is the man raping her? He is not forcing her, she simply doesn't speak her mind.

As bad as rape is, you should know that there are a lot of people out there who are accused of rape when they are actually innocent. Such an allegation can cause a lot of damage to someone's life, even if he's innocent.

There are women out there who are the asshole equivalent of male rapists.
#77 - paraplegicdinosaur (04/18/2014) [-]
I think you were dropped on the head as a child.
#44 - anonymous (04/18/2014) [-]
what if a girl with no mouth wanted to get it on and had to resort to nodding
User avatar #38 - captainfuckitall (04/18/2014) [-]
Also! I would like to propose to you a philosophical question.

Do you believe that people should be punished if they break a rule they never knew existed?

If yes: Why? (and don't say 'they could have looked it up themselves', because you can't exactly look for something you don't know exists. It would be like trying to look up a concept that you don't know the word for)

If no: Why?

Now, another question, regardless of how you replied to the first

If someone knew that the former person was breaking a rule, and yet did not tell them of the rule or that they were breaking it, should they be punished for not telling them? (For example, if you wanted to go into a certain area you did not know was private property, and I did not tell you it was, but followed you into it anyways, which of the two of us should be punished, if at all?)

If yes: Why?

If no: Why? (The law would disagree with you, by the way. They would either call you an accomplice or an instigator of crime)

Now, if you were like most logical people and concluded "No, the person who did not know they were breaking the law shouldn't be punished, or at the very most should get a slap on the wrist" and "Yes, the person who did know they were breaking the law and did not tell them should be punished, because they are allowing a crime to happen, which is at least only slightly less bad than actually doing it", then would it not be rational to conclude that the woman was at fault for not saying 'No' rather than the man being at fault because he didn't know her boundaries?

And of course you could always turn to your friend and ask "Hey, is this public or private property?", but would you really do that every time you see a new area? And why would you ask them in the first place, as wouldn't it only be logical to assume that they would TELL YOU themselves if it was private property, before you had a need to ask?
User avatar #87 - captainfuckitall (04/18/2014) [-]
But exceptions are made, as shown.

And I'm not talking about things like murder, where you chop someone's head off and expect to get away with it. I mean things like not knowing the speed-limit of a certain road you're on (which I've heard people get away with before), walking on private property (also which I've heard before), or things like lighting (camp) fires, driving unauthorized vehicles, or even sitting in the rear of an open truck while it drives. Nearly all police I've met will excuse such crimes if you are in rush, if there's few other people, or if they're just in the mood to let you go, so I don't think it would be any problem for them if you didn't happen to know it was illegal.
User avatar #89 - Endofzeeworld (04/18/2014) [-]
I was under the impression we were talking about rape here. I see however, that your question was asked in a more general way. My mistake.
User avatar #91 - captainfuckitall (04/18/2014) [-]
Oh no sir, it was my mistake, I should have been more precise.

The point I'm trying to make is that women give signals, that's part of flirting. They're generally coy, generally play hard to get, generally mischievous. All of these things are seen as part of flirting by men, and these things are even APPROVED by other women. Surely this is a sign of consent (as consent is not just verbal), and even now we can see a post near front-page that details the stories of 21 men and how they became single, and nearly all of them were because the women wanted sex, were ambiguous about it, and he didn't get the message. But if they did, would they be branded as a rapist?

Indeed, it is the initiators responsibility to ask for consent, ALWAYS. However, it is the responsibility of the receiver to give a clear answer as to what they want. If the message they send is just that, ambiguous and subtle, is it really at the fault of the man for mistaking it when she could have just said 'no'? (ESPECIALLY if she went along with his advances instead of correcting them?)

That's all I'm saying. Much like with kids looking both ways before they cross the street. They shouldn't HAVE to worry about being hit by cars, but until we live in a perfect world, they need to know what they're getting into and if they can't handle it, can't look both ways, or stammer right in the middle of the road, they should just stay home
#60 - fjlee (04/18/2014) [-]
breaking a rule isnt the reasoning behind the vast majority of people who dont rape anyone. Even if it is a legal gray area there is no ethical question as to whether or not it is wrong. for example the reason i have never raped someone isn't because i fear reprisal from a government entity, its because i know that its wrong and being the person i am i wouldn't do it. it isn't an arbitrary rule where this kind of philosophical question can be applied
User avatar #62 - captainfuckitall (04/18/2014) [-]
I know, it was just an example in regards to where the line of 'consent' is drawn and what it actually means.

The argument I was trying to make is that if a woman does not tell a man outright "No", then it is not his fault if he takes an ambiguous action to be consent (provided it's not a forceful rape that you'd find in an alley-way. I mean a man flirting with a woman at a bar or a party), especially if she goes along with it and doesn't correct it. I do believe there's a post near the front page now where 21 men were broken up with, and the reason they were is explained in a little story, and nearly all of them simply involve NOT going for it even when the woman didn't consent, because she was trying to be coy.

Of course raping someone is wrong, and there is no question about it.
User avatar #63 - fjlee (04/18/2014) [-]
thats true, i hadnt thought about it that way. even though its very much implied in those scenarios its not actually ever stated.
User avatar #65 - captainfuckitall (04/18/2014) [-]
Well it usually isn't. I'm sure you yourself have seen many posts about how men are so oblivious to a woman's signals, and now I have to have the fear that misinterpreting them will slam me with a rape charge.

He's right though, and he's always been right, it's the responsibility of the initiator to gain consent (and keep in mind, consent can be given in many different ways. Not just verbally). But the point I was trying to make was that if that IS their responsibility, it is the responsibility of the recipient to give a clear answer as to what they want and not give the wrong signals; and if they don't, the initiator cannot be at fault for misinterpreting them (in either case, whether abandoning the chase of carrying it through) in the same sense that a person who does not know of a law should not be punished for breaking it. At most, they should just get a slap on the wrist.

I mean, really, how would you feel if you hooked up with a gorgeous woman at a party and had a great night, only to find you had a rape charge against you later. You are taken from your job, fired (nobody wants a potential rapist on their payroll, and even if you are cleared, it is still always on record that you WERE accused), have it published in the paper that you were accused of rape, and dragged to court to be put on the stand, only to have her say "Well, I only went along with it because I felt obligated to, so you raped me"
User avatar #76 - skaffanl (04/18/2014) [-]
I had this same discussion a while ago. A woman was calling this boy a full-on rapist because he had sex with a girl at a party even though the girl admitted not having in any way made obvious she wasn't interested (she even was interested, just not THAT interested). So I tried to explain to her that even though the girl is still raped the boy is not a rapist. The boy wasn't hiding in the bushes waiting for a girl to come by to rape. But to her there was absolutely no difference between the boy and a man who commits rape with malice aforethought (I googled it). Maybe that's a good idea if it's not already existent. First-degree rape, second-degree rape and stuff.
User avatar #84 - captainfuckitall (04/18/2014) [-]
Now that you say it, it is a good idea. It would really help narrow down exactly what defines as rape, and what levels of 'rape' are worse than another (as we can all agree that having a brutal rape in an alleyway is much worse than being drunk and taken advantage of at a party. At least from a sensible point of view).
#92 - skaffanl (04/18/2014) [-]
Hell ye captainfuckitall for president!
User avatar #36 - mads (04/18/2014) [-]
Teaching a man not to rape is completely redundant. Pretty much everyone knows that Rape is wrong. Even rapists know that rape is wrong. So teaching someone not to do something when they wouldn't in the fist place is pointless. Teaching someone not to do something when they are going to do that is in the first place is also pointless.
"Victim Blaming" - No. I'ts not victim blaming. Rape is utterly disgusting and shouldn't happen to anyone. Rapists should be punished severely. But telling someone who won't rape not to rape is a waste of time and resources, which could be spent on policing rape, teaching the events of rape, teaching young people the EXACT definition of rape instead of dancing around it.

Also notice that I didn't mention either gender in my argument. Because blaming rape on either gender is also fucking stupid. Members of both genders can be either the rapist or the Victim.
#28 - reginleif (04/18/2014) [-]
GoodCheese do good people rape?
Can you rape, and be a moral person, someone who is good?
Do you tell people who you believe to be good, do you tell people who YOU believe to be DECENT human beings, to do things like

1. Don't kick dogs
2. Don't kill people
3. Don't steal anything while I'm out.

You don't, you don't mention these things to GOOD PEOPLE because it is already implied that good people do not do these things and do not need to be reminded not to do them.

To illustrate my point, I present to you this box of puppies!

Now GoodCheese, I submit to you that you are a good person, but I feel like I must warn you to not throw these puppies in a river.... no no I'm not saying you're going to do it! I'm just saying, DON'T do it!

Don't you see how ridiculous that sounds?

By taking the statement of yours that boys should be taught not to rape I can only come to two conclusions....

1. You believe that one can rape and still be a good person.
or
2. You don't think that boys are good people, and that they must be instructed not to rape. :/
Which one is it?
Also I should probably mention that the anon has a point, women by definition cannot commit rape as defined by the law, but if we put into consideration other forms of outlast the numbers look much better for men .

#118 - anonymous (04/18/2014) [-]
I dunno, you got it all kinds of fucked up and for some reason it just sounds like you're trying REALLY hard to prevent a decent message from being spread.

Like, how does a person see the words "let's teach boys not to rape" and think "let me think of a compelling argument why I think THAT'S OPPRESSIVE BULLSHIT."

Speaking of bullshit, your puppy analogy.... throwing puppies into a river =/= rape. The comparison makes no sense and you just seem really smarmy about it anyways.
And seriously? Those are the only two conclusions you can come to?

Listen, teaching young men not to rape is not saying "we think people with penises are bad." The fact is, people, regardless of gender, do shitty things. It just so happens that rape, a particularly shitty thing, is a crime that men are more prone to commit. We should do everything in our power to get those numbers down.
Teaching dudes to not rape may help, or it may not. But the purpose is decent and I don't really understand your problem.
User avatar #82 - zeusx (04/18/2014) [-]
that's not the argument though. nobody tells grown ass people how to behave because it's assumed that they have already been taught. in the same way that when you were little you may have hit, bit, or been a dick to somebody and your caretaker told you not to do that, we should instill the principle of getting consent into young people. youre missing the point if you think t's just about telling grown ass men things they should know, its about not having to get to that point
User avatar #95 - TexMex (04/18/2014) [-]
It says "Teach men not to rape"
not "Teach boys not to rape"
nor "Teach people not to rape"

It's sexist either way.
User avatar #98 - zeusx (04/18/2014) [-]
yeah it is. women may be the majority getting raped but that doesn't mean we should throw all the men under the bus and forget the male victims too. people in general need to be taught to respect each other more than that
User avatar #103 - TexMex (04/18/2014) [-]
Maybe it's just feminists who really believe in this whole rape culture thing where they think rape is somehow excluded as a moral fault in men's minds.
User avatar #104 - zeusx (04/18/2014) [-]
maybe. but to be honest this whole "hurr durr, lets hate the feminists" thing on fj has been reall annoying lately. ok, apparently you guys all fucking despise these women but the problem is that you have this knee jerk reaction whenever you hear the word. maybe we should take it on a case by case basis instead of making blanket generalizations about so many people in the same way you think all the feminists do. its getting so goddamn repetitive at this point
#32 - anonymous (04/18/2014) [-]
i wish i could thumb you 10000000 times.
User avatar #33 - reginleif (04/18/2014) [-]
Well you can't.

You only get one thumb like everyone else. Use it wisely.

GET THAT THUMB OUT OF THERE -.-
#23 - anonymous (04/18/2014) [-]
You should get raped in the ass by a barbed dildo then recieve a rubbing alcohol enema.
#21 - anonymous (04/18/2014) [-]
like seriously you need to die.
User avatar #22 - captainfuckitall (04/18/2014) [-]
Just one comment is enough, dude. You don't need four.
User avatar #20 - captainfuckitall (04/18/2014) [-]
"A lot of people don't understand what 'consent' is"

Yes we do. It's "Yes".

"If someone says no" good "Gives no answer" not so good. Just suck it up and say "no". "Gives non-verbal answers" like what? Do YOU understand every subtle body cue you make? Cause if not, how the hell do you expect me to know all of them? "gives ambiguous answers" no. Just fucking say 'no'. If you say "Well, I don't know..." It just sounds like you're teasing or being coy. You know, the very thing women claim they do all the time? The very thing that requires men to have VERY obvious signals? Cut that shit out. "Says yes under coercion/blackmail" obviously "or unconscious" again, obviously.

Telling passive, rational members of society these things does nothing. It really doesn't. The only people who 'need' to hear these types of things are criminals, and it's not as if they'd have a massive epiphany because you told them "Hey, crimes are bad, m'kay?"

"A lot of men rape without realizing it", then I could easily say "A lot of women give consent without realizing it". Just say "NO!", and if they don't back off, they're the ones at fault, but if you don't have enough of a spine to stand up and say that, why the fuck are you going out in the first-place? "Tee-hee, well it's hard for me to say 'no'!", guess what, that's another thing plenty of women say to be coy. Tough fucking titties.

Nobody is saying they're oppressed, they're saying that it's sexist to "teach men not to rape", as IF all men were rapists or were inherently awful human beings. How would you feel if you had a course "Teach women not to be bad drivers", "Teach women not to be sluts", "Teach women not to be a bitch", "Teach women to actually make up their minds and not take 5 hours to get ready for dinner".

"Considering how many men are perpetrators of rape" and considering how many women make false rape claims, how about we go ahead and teach them "Don't be that girl", ya?
User avatar #27 - goodcheese (04/18/2014) [-]
the responsibility is on the person initiating sex to get consent. if somebody wants sex then it's their job to make sure the other person is comfortable with it. someone may not feel comfortable saying no. they might fear physical retribution they might not even realize they are allowed to say no. but again why are we focusing on blaming survivors for what they should've done when we could tell people that yes only gives consent under free will and to not assume that someone is okay with having sex if they haven't said yes. what's wrong with educating men on consent? why would you have sex with someone who wasn't okay with it? who cares why they didn't consent, if you don't want to force them then it's simple enough to ask. rapists are very rarely strangers in a dark alley who attack people. it's much more often that the survivor knows the person who attacked them. and it's not saying all men are rapists it's saying that many men do not know what consent is and when they do survey's they've found that many men agree with statements that describe situations where it's okay to rape someone if the statement doesn't explicitly say rape.

false rape reports are very very rare. it's much more likely to go unreported because of assholes who think women make up or deserve to get raped.
User avatar #30 - captainfuckitall (04/18/2014) [-]
(Continued)

But, ya see, many men DO know what consent is. That's just it, and that's why they get so offended when people insist on treating them as if they're ruthless animals based on instinct that need to be taught "it's not okay!" for literally EVERY man. It's no different than teaching all black people not to steal, or all Indians not to drink, or all Asians not to drive so shitty. It's insulting and it's degrading for anyone to even think "Teach men not to rape!" is okay.

I'd like to see those reports on that. Surely, with the popularity of rape and rape statistics, you can provide them again

You think?
www.returnofkings.com/22079/the-truth-about-false-rape-accusations-that-all-men-should-know
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape#FBI_statistics
www.theforensicexaminer.com/archive/spring09/15/
www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/economic-intelligence/2013/10/24/statistics-dont-back-up-claims-about-rape-culture
www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2009/10/how_often_do_women_falsely_cry_rape.html
straightstatistics.org/article/crying-rape-falsely-rare-or-common

In case you don't want to read all of those, it basically comes to 8-12% of all rape allegations are fabricated. A bit over twice as much as any other crime

And who in this whole wide world would EVER shove a rape-claim under the table because "Oh, she deserved it". Do you even HEAR yourself? Do you know how many people would have their jobs and lives ruined if they did that? Do you honestly believe that the majority of men believe women 'deserve' to be raped?

One of the biggest reasons rape is considered the 'crime of crimes' is because, if there's no evidence, it basically comes down to a battle of "He said/She said", and it's a common fact that juries will nearly always support the woman over the man in legal battles. Not to mention it is the fault of feminists themselves that the term 'rape' is so subjective when it shouldn't be
#86 - BloodAwaits (04/18/2014) [-]
Stop, stop, stop! STOP USING ALL YOUR LOGIC.
User avatar #29 - captainfuckitall (04/18/2014) [-]
But if 'no' comes in different forms, doesn't consent do the same? If she takes her shirt off and starts grinding against me, I'm not gonna ask "do...do you wanna have sex now?", I'm gonna roll with it and start feeling her up. If that happens, should I get slapped as she screams "I didn't give consent!", no, because she DID, if you can give a "non-verbal" no, you can also give a non-verbal consent.

What if she initiates it, does that mean I don't have to ask, but she does or else it's rape?

If they don't feel comfortable saying no, they shouldn't be out. I'm serious. If you 'weren't comfortable saying no' to being an accessory to murder, you would still be tried. Don't you fucking start that bullshit. Again, if you say it is my responsibility to ask for consent, it is HERS to say 'no'. And who the fuck doesn't realize they're allowed to say no? Really? Do you honestly mean I have to tell her every time "now, you don't have to have sex with me just because *List off every single reason I can think of that she might feel obligated to have sex with me*" before we have sex?

Nobody is blaming anyone, and only idiots actually believe "victim blaming" is a cultural thing. What people REALLY say is that shit happens, and you are nearly always able to prevent or postpone it somehow. Does that make it your fault? No, absolutely not, but you CAN be smarter about things. Like a person looking both ways before they cross the street; if they don't and get hit by a car, are they at fault? No. Are they an idiot? Yes. Because shit happens and until this world is perfect, we need to look out for ourselves.

What's wrong with educating women on growing a spine and saying "no"? It's the exact same logic.

I wouldn't, which is why I'm not a filthy criminal, and guess what, if I WAS a filthy criminal, I really wouldn't care.

And it's also simple enough to say 'no'. You seem to be defending women for something that's just as easy for them to do as it is for men to do. That is, speak.
User avatar #47 - goodcheese (04/18/2014) [-]
if she initiates it and doesn't ask then she risks raping you yes. Again the only way KNOW that someone wants sex is to ask. people have consensual sex all the time where nobody asked consent but that's a risk that the person initiating sex takes. The only way to know for sure.

and yes we should encourage being safe always. but lets say i get hit by a drunk driver and i'm not wearing a seat belt and i get very badly injured, i could've been safer but it never stopped the drunk driver.

and yes most rape and sexual assault curriculums emphasize communication on both parts but again if someone is initiating sex it is there responsibility to ask

if i'm offering food you can take it. if i'm not you have to ask. you wouldn't try and take it without asking and just hope i don't say no. and in regards to your other comment, ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking the law, everyone knows that. which emphasizes the importance of education.

and we can have a statistics battle, yes 2-8% is a lot but 92-98% is a whole lot more. not to mention there is a difference between falsely reported rape and false accusations. the majority of that 2-8% statistic means a woman made up an attack against an unspecified aggressor which harms nobody but the woman's credibility. it's very rare for a woman to actually name an individual as someone who raped her. and the 60% of unreported cases are pretty shocking. and many comments suggest that one deserves rape such as "what was she wearing" "what did she expect" etc. these create a culture where we focus on women and how they can prevent someone from raping them and taking the focus off of people who actually commit rape.

the teach men not to rape is not meant to assume all men are rapists but to bring attention to the fact that there are quite a lot of men who do rape. 1 in 6 women and 1 in 33 men are victims of a rape or sexual assault in their lifetime so it does happen a lot. we need to educate people on what consent means.
User avatar #58 - hargleblarg (04/18/2014) [-]
I'd just like to chip-in on this little debate with something.

Throughout this whole thing it's implied that only men rape. Yes, it's mostly men who are rapists, but there are plenty of women rapists too. Why not teach women not to rape?
User avatar #53 - captainfuckitall (04/18/2014) [-]
(Continued)

Just as well, men can also go to jail due to false rape accusations, and many men have. Considering the very flimsy definitions of rape, what counts as rape, and the general lack of evidence that is often associated with rape (as it generally happens in private areas and the woman can always refuse to give D.N.A. tests). I mean, people have gone to prison over rape claims 40 years after the rapes occurred (that's not to say the claims were false, it just means the amount of evidence required is not substantial, as it's common knowledge that the law and jury's nearly always favour the woman over the man).

Didn't you say earlier that it was often someone close to the woman who rapes her?

Another person before you first claimed that 30% of rapes go unreported, then he claimed 70%, now you're claiming 60%. Do you see what I mean when I say it is unreliable and should not be included?

I would like to see those comments made 'often, please; as I have only ever found a few out of a hundred that actually support the rapist over the woman and they tend to be down-voted into oblivion (provided they're not trolls, of course...). There IS no rape culture because that doesn't happen, I have only ever heard of "what were you wearing at the time" in a rape case on a fictional TV show. Nobody blames the victim; at most, people DO say "well what do you expect", when she puts herself into a bad situation and then gets raped. Again, that's not to say they're BLAMING her, they're saying she could have been smarter, which is true.

I would like to see those statistics of yours, as they seem extraordinarily high, and there is absolutely no way they would be true WITHOUT literally thousands of well-documented and cited reports to back them up. I mean, good lords, I've known hundreds if not thousands of women throughout my life and can count on one hand how many have been raped, and that's me taking their word for it.

No, what we need to do is nail down what "Rape" is.
User avatar #51 - captainfuckitall (04/18/2014) [-]
Then why is it so that a woman can consent to sex and then take it back later and the man can still be tried for rape? Are there some cases where yes doesn't actually mean yes? Should these people really be treated as adults?

That's true, but people would still call you an idiot for not wearing a seat-belt. Again, nobody would blame you, but they WOULD be right in saying you could have prepared yourself better.

But again, should it not then be the other person's responsibility to give a clear and concise answer? I mean, if I asked if I could have some food and you said "Hmm, well, I'm not sure, maybe, I'm okay with you having some now, but might not be okay with it later", that would just be retarded. So if you go to another country and accidentally break the law, or do something negative by cultural standards, you should receive full punishment/be ostracized? Because the majority of England, who lets its immigrants get away with crimes all the time due to cultural differences, would disagree with you. Education is important, but again, you cannot go out of your way to learn something you do not know exists, nor can you be taught something by a teacher who doesn't know it exists. If all men must take a class to know "How not to rape", all women should take one on "How to say no".

8-12%, actually. You're still right, though; 88-92% still is much higher, and I'm not making excuses for rapists or saying victims should be marginalized. I'm saying rape accusations happen. We also cannot bring up the amount of rapes unreported, as by the very nature of them going unreported, you CAN'T report them. All we CAN report is the amount of rape claims that are false. And it does harm people, actually; plenty of people have had their lives ruined because of false-rape accusations, because even HAVING an accusation thrown against you can be the difference between getting that high paying job or being fired, because why would anyone want a potential rapist on their payroll?
#19 - anonymous (04/18/2014) [-]
kill yourself.
#18 - anonymous (04/18/2014) [-]
Where did anyone impy that men were being oppressed by being told not to rape? Stop putting words in peoples mouths.
#17 - anonymous (04/18/2014) [-]
Your a fucking idiot. Men don't need people constantly telling them not to rape in order to stop raping. THEY ALREADY KNOW THAT CAUSING HARM IN ANY WAY IS WRONG YOU FUCKING SEXIST PIECE OF SHIT.
#16 - anonymous (04/18/2014) [-]
40% of rapes are women on women/ women on men in america! they are listed as forced penetration as rape is defined as forcibly penetrating someone via dildo, penis and so on. It is a fucked system and the fact you said lot of men rape goes to show that you already have a view on the sexiest thinking in america. Many women rape without knowing but with men more relaxed and not as bothered about sex it is either ignored or if the person feels they have been raped are laughed at. Also any women can get laid doesn't matter there looks men on the other hand can not. which is why men are seen as wanting sex more because girls can get and find sex anywhere from 13 and up whilst most males do not get laid until 17 and up. And even then a girl could get fucked three times a day every day of the week and never fuck the same guy twice. guys on the other hand no so much
#11 - isn't that what most confessions secretly are?  [+] (4 new replies) 04/18/2014 on How you like me now? 0
User avatar #20 - adu (04/18/2014) [-]
I fucked your dog.
#22 - iamstoopid (04/18/2014) [-]
i fucked your dad
User avatar #23 - adu (04/18/2014) [-]
I fucked your dog's dad.
#26 - iamstoopid (04/18/2014) [-]
you're*
#12 - actually most women i've talked to don't mind men looking at a…  [+] (2 new replies) 04/18/2014 on Woman logic +30
User avatar #31 - niggernazi (04/18/2014) [-]
''its about keeping your fearsome snake in a steady grip when a woman exposes her skin''
-master kim jong ill
#19 - anonymous (04/18/2014) [-]
Yes but this picture was only meant to make fun of the ones who bitch about eye rape and getting hit on when they are obviously asking for it by dressing like sluts. Most women don't do that but it is fun to make fun of the few who do.
#17 - "volunteer" 04/13/2014 on perspetive +1
#107788 - just saw the video for outkast at coachella. holy **** …  [+] (1 new reply) 04/13/2014 on Music - new music, hip hop... 0
User avatar #107822 - awesomerninjathing (04/13/2014) [-]
note that they're all tired after standing for 8 hours, it's the last show of the night, the songs weren't all hype songs, and they aren't all fans of Outkast
#126900 - tell her you believe her and that it's not her fault. it's up … 04/11/2014 on Advice - love advice,... 0
#126594 - jerk off, if you still think she's super awesome after then yo… 04/09/2014 on Advice - love advice,... 0

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User avatar #3 - hornack (01/04/2014) [-]
Is there a way I could get your fj points?
User avatar #2 - garfvader (08/26/2013) [-]
Thank you <3
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