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|#2455 - **frenzysalem used "*roll cah answer*"** **frenzysalem roll…||12/25/2014 on Cards Against Humanity...||0|
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|#79 - That's what I'm saying. After that other post showing the endi…||12/20/2014 on Don't cry.. Don't cry..||0|
|#390 - ^^^^what he said||12/16/2014 on Mens Rights Activist||0|
|#334 - No but you see, the difference is, the woman could get an abor… [+] (18 new replies)||12/16/2014 on Mens Rights Activist||0|
#370 - peachrock (12/16/2014) [-]
He's not a fucking retard, it's the law. And it's there for a reason. MAny women believe abortion is morally wrong. I don't, but I still know I would feel really bad if I had to take an abortion, especially if someone forced me to. A father isn't forced to be a part of the baby's life (other than held financially repsonsible), a mother is. That's the difference.
#381 - wertologist (12/16/2014) [-]
"A father isn't forced to be a part of the baby's life (other than held financially repsonsible), a mother is"
Short of giving birth to said child(if she did not want to abort) the mother has just as much right to not be a part of that child's life. I know many cases where the woman gives birth and ditches the kid. To assume that a mother will be a bigger part than the man in every family is close minded. The mother isn't forced to be with the kid or to even have the kid.
#385 - wertologist (12/16/2014) [-]
If you wanted to keep the kid while the father didn't and has to pay for it is just unfair. If the mother wants to have the child then let her, but she shouldn't have the right to make the decision which both have a stake in. If a woman has 100% choice, the man should have the right to opt out. If you are morally against abortion then that kinda sucks for you. We live in a world where morals don't really count for shit anymore so it's a poor excuse for most.
As I said before, the mother does NOT have to stick with the kid and has no real obligations to other than their own choice.
#389 - peachrock (12/16/2014) [-]
It's not really a choice for most women, I can tell you that. It's biological, every femal mammal has it, the need to protect their children, keep them close. Just a few is able to put their children up for adoption, and it's never an easy choice. Most spend their life wondering about the child, thinking of it every day.
And no, a man should have the right to have a say, but when it comes down to it, it's up to the mother. It's her body, but their children.
#392 - wertologist (12/16/2014) [-]
It certainly is a choice and it's just plain moronic to think otherwise. It's not biological. Even wild animals can/will give up their young or even fucking eat them. I had pet rabbits and the mother ate the babies. Don't try to hide behind that. Hormones may make some women more affectionate towards the child, but you can NOT say all women. I've met some pretty fucking awful mothers in my life and they had little care for their kids. The same could be said about some fathers, but that is a different topic.
If you do not want a man to have the choice in an abortion or adoption, then you must give him the right to opt out. It is only fair. There are women who will use the child to drain money from the fathers and often will mistreat or neglect the kids. To make every man have to have no say in the matter is just wrong.
"And no, a man should have the right to have a say, but when it comes down to it, it's up to the mother"
That quote right there makes no sense. It basically translates to "You can say what you want, but I'm going to do whatever I want regardless of your choice"
#413 - peachrock (12/16/2014) [-]
I'm not saying all mothers feel the same about their children. What I am saying, which I have experienced myself as a nurse, is that most women <99% is very affectionate for their children, even when it's just a baby in the womb. I've also had patients when I used to work at a rehab who didn't want the baby primarily because of the withdrawals, but after a while, when they felt the baby kick inside them and when they saw it using ultrasound, they were completely taken aback, surprised about how strongly they felt. Never underestimate motherhood.
What I meant was that the father should be allowed to have an opinion about the topic, but when it really comes down to it, the choice is up to the woman. That's just the way it is. Women get pregnant, not men. That's the difference.
#416 - wertologist (12/16/2014) [-]
I know the difference, but for it to truly be fair the man should have the right to opt out. Again, by saying " the father should be allowed to have an opinion about the topic, but when it really comes down to it, the choice is up to the woman" it basically just says "It doesn't matter what you say, I'm doing what I want".
I think both parents should have equal say. I'm for equal rights and treatment of people.
>2 people fuck but both don't want kids
>girl gets pregnant
>both still don't want kids, but girl decides to keep it
>guy is stuck despite not even wanting a child
I know accidents happen, but I think the choice should be 50/50 and not all up to the woman. I'm not saying to force to woman into having an abortion. The man should have the right to just say he doesn't want to be a part of it. It is unfair to remove the fathers decision in the matter.
#419 - peachrock (12/16/2014) [-]
It won't ever be truly fair, it wouldn't even be truly fair if the man got to opt out, because then the mother is left with the financial responsibility for the child, which by the way doesn't have a father. This isn't just about the mother, but what's best for the child as well. It's the only innocent part of this, and it has the right to grow up preferably with a father, but if not that, then at least financial support.
"Again, by saying " the father should be allowed to have an opinion about the topic, but when it really comes down to it, the choice is up to the woman" it basically just says "It doesn't matter what you say, I'm doing what I want". " - You're repeating yourself, even though I answered that.
By saying that the man should have the right to get out, you're actually saying you'd force thousands of women to abort, because a lot of them doesn't have enough money to raise a child, they see abortion as the only solution, which is very unethical. The father's decision doesn't even exist, not in the Western world as far as I know. He only gets to have a say in the matter, and I truly believe the woman should care about what the father think is the right thing to do. It's like you think abortion/adoption is an easy solution. It is never easy. You'd have to be very shallow if you think so.
You said it yourself, two people fuck, meaning two people takes the responsibility and the consequences. One of those consequences is a baby, everyone knows there's a risk involved. But above all, protect the child if it's born.
#422 - wertologist (12/16/2014) [-]
If the woman wants to keep the child when the father does not want it, it should be up to her to take care of it. Whether it's adoption, abortion, or keeping it. It really should be a 50/50 decision.
As for me repeating myself, it is because your explanation was just a repeat of what you had said. You said the same thing twice so I clarified again.
I don't see how I'd be forcing thousands of women to abort their children. It would be 100% up to them. If they want to raise the kid it is their choice. I just don't think it's right to force someone into a situation they did not want to be in.
The problem with "it's unethical" is that it is your opinion on the matter. Opinions should not be forced onto other people's lives. It sadly has become a trend nowadays to try to force opinions on other people. That itself is unethical. If you think it's unethical to get an abortion, fine. Don't get one. Nobody is forcing you to get one. Just don't go and try to prevent other people from getting them. It's your right to have an opinion, but when you try to make your opinion effect other people's rights, that's when it's a problem.
I can tell you are against abortion. I respect your beliefs, but your beliefs should not control other people's rights. This is a free country(USATM). People have no right to force their beliefs onto other people.
Yes, I said the parents should take responsibility, but the responsibilities also include deciding to keep the kid(s) or not which goes back to the 50/50. To say both have to take equal responsibility, it is only fair if they have equal say. I don't see how it's fair for the mother to keep a child when the father did not want it then to demand he has to take equal responsibility.
That would be like you and a friend discussing what movie you want to watch, then buying one that your friend did not want to watch, then making them sit their and pay for it for 18 or more years.
#425 - peachrock (12/16/2014) [-]
It's not 100% up to them if they can't afford to raise it, no.
"I just don't think it's right to force someone into a situation they did not want to be in. "
But the woman is already forced to make an unpleasant decision, no matter what, SHE is the one who has to take most of the responsibility for the kid, not the father. She is also financially responsible if it's born, but she is also the only one having to live with the fact that she "killed her baby" (as many women think).
Of course I want my opinion to affect people's rights, you are doing exactly the same, just against the women. It kinda makes your argument invalid, don't you think?
I am actually not against abortion, I am 100% for, and would have one myself if I got pregnant (which I thought I was just a few weeks ago). But I can also understand women who can't have an abortion, because they feel it's their responsibility to raise the unborn child, and many women also (like I said) feel that abortion is murder.
"This is a free country(USATM). People have no right to force their beliefs onto other people. "
Like I said, you are doing exactly the same. You are trying to limit women's rights.
"That would be like you and a friend discussing what movie you want to watch, then buying one that your friend did not want to watch, then making them sit their and pay for it for 18 or more years."
I'm afraid you lost me there. I am talking about emotions, something that will affect three people and their families for the rest of their lives. Your situation can't really relate in any way.
#427 - wertologist (12/16/2014) [-]
You can't hide from having to make decisions in life. Whether the mother decides to keep the kid or not they will still have to decide. It may be an unpleasant decision for you, but not to others. She should be financially responsible if she is the only one who wanted to have the kid in the first place.
I'm not forcing my beliefs on people. That's what you're trying to do. I'm saying it's a persons right to decide how they handle the situation. I'm for equality and fair treatment. Don't try to paint me as going against women.
If a woman feels it's her responsibility to raise the kid, then let her. People have the right to make their own decisions. If she's uncomfortable with getting an abortion and feels the need to raise the kid, then she can do it. Just don't drag others who were against it into the mess. She shouldn't have had sex if she knew she wasn't able to raise a child and was against abortion.
Like I said, I'm not trying to force my beliefs on people. I'm sticking up for equal rights. I'm sure as hell not trying to limit women's rights. I just think it's horribly unjust to force someone into a situation when they have no say in the matter.
That situation was a simplified comparison. You are talking about emotions and I am talking about equal rights and fairness. It is simply unfair to force someone into a situation they wanted nothing to do with. If the woman wants to keep the kid or feels morally obligated to do so then she can, but it is not right to force an unwanted participant into it.
The problem with trying to appeal to everyone's feelings is that when you change one thing, it'll make more unhappy. You could argue I'm doing that, but I'm arguing for equal rights. You're arguing for a woman to have more power than the man in that situation. Don't try to turn this into a sexist issue. This is an equality issue. At no point did I say anything about limiting women's rights unless you consider making parenthood and equal responsibility as sexist.
#430 - peachrock (12/16/2014) [-]
You are trying to decide for people, if you're trying to change the law. Not one of the things I said was untrue.
You're not "dragging" random people into the situation, you're making the man take responsibility for what he already knew was a risk. You're talking about choices, if you don't want children, or if you can't afford or don't want to pay for a baby, then the man has a CHOICE not to have sex. Sex is not a basic human right. Think of the baby, what's the best thing for the baby, the only innocent part here?
"She shouldn't have had sex if she knew she wasn't able to raise a child and was against abortion. "
The EXACT same thing goes for the man (equality), just like I said.
"but it is not right to force an unwanted participant into it. "
They're BOTH unwanted participants in the situation. I get it, women are the only ones who has the final choice, but that doesn't make them any less of an unwanted participant.
When it comes to this topic, I couldn't care less about what's sexist or not. My concern is primarily for the baby, then the woman (because of pregnancy, hormones and birth), then the father. That's the natural order, that's why the law support my views. By the way, you are limiting women's rights by saying they shouldn't have the right to get financially support from the fathers. That's a right today, and you want to limit it. Or have I misinterpreted this whole discussion, and you actually agree with me?
#435 - wertologist (12/16/2014) [-]
I'm not trying to decide for people. I don't know where you are getting that from. I am for equality. If you think changing a law is bad just think back to when women could not vote in America.
You keep trying to put focus on the unborn child. Life is important, but it is not right to put the power to drastically change the child's/children's and father's life into the hands of just the mother. It should be a shared choice all the way. That is what I'm arguing for. The way you want it is that it's 100% up to the mother and the father will have no say.
If two people who don't want a kid have sex, she gets prego, she changes her mind and wants to keep it, he doesn't, he has no say. That is unfair no matter how you twist it.
""She shouldn't have had sex if she knew she wasn't able to raise a child and was against abortion. "
The EXACT same thing goes for the man (equality), just like I said.
Both are responsible, but only one gets a say in the matter? That is not equality. I'm in no way saying that doesn't apply to men.
All I'm saying is that it is horrible unfair for a woman to have 100% say in the matter.
As I have said before I am 100% for equal rights. I'm not trying to "limit" women's rights. That is a horribly unfair right to begin with and should seriously be reworked. You could argue that I'm "limiting" women's rights if you put it that way, but just because it is a "right" it does not mean it is right. Years ago it was a right to own slaves. Years ago women had no right to vote. Are you saying that because something is a right that automatically makes it just and fair? I'm against any right that gives people control over others.
#450 - peachrock (12/18/2014) [-]
"I'm not trying to decide for people. I don't know where you are getting that from. I am for equality. If you think changing a law is bad just think back to when women could not vote in America. "
You're not adding rights like in your example, you're taking rights away from women.
"You keep trying to put focus on the unborn child. Life is important, but it is not right to put the power to drastically change the child's/children's and father's life into the hands of just the mother. It should be a shared choice all the way. That is what I'm arguing for. The way you want it is that it's 100% up to the mother and the father will have no say."
I HAVE said that the father have to have a say, but when it comes down to it, it's the mother's choice. I don't think I have anything new to add to this discussion, and neither have you. Just think of what's best for the baby in the end.
#452 - wertologist (12/18/2014) [-]
"I HAVE said that the father have to have a say, but when it comes down to it, it's the mother's choice"
"it's the mother's choice"
No matter what it's still up to the mother which is unfair. It should be 50/50 or give the father the right to opt out. The way it is now is no matter what the guy says the mother can still keep the kid(s).
I'm not trying to take away women's rights. I'm just want equal rights. If you think it's fair for the woman to have 100% say in the matter that is just messed up. You say to think about the kid, but you should try to think about the whole family in general.
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#139 - anonymous (12/02/2014) [-]
You're ridiculous.... Ridiculously gay! Nerd!
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