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Vandeekree

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Date Signed Up:2/21/2010
Last Login:8/30/2016
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latest user's comments

#45 - Ok, that helps get to the heart of the matter. So you are taki… 08/27/2016 on alpaca 0
#43 - And I understand all of that. But what you just explained, wit…  [+] (2 new replies) 08/27/2016 on alpaca 0
User avatar
#44 - doctorcamden (08/27/2016) [-]
I literally just explained why morals and the actions of animals arent comparable. You cant throw any action into a right or wrong scenario. Morals are a human construction based on social stigma over many millenia. They are part of what seperates us from the lesser animals, ie, a product of our self awareness.

You bring up emotion, emotions are chemical reactions in the brain. Irrelevant. Dont waste my time further.

My statement on islam was to parody your logic. You cant be that stupid im sure, so im going to take your reply as satirical.

Gay is a deep-seeded part of human psychology, its theorized there are traces of it in all humans. To treat a homosexual as sick or wrong and deny them the freedoms of others is a violation of human rights, its comparable to treating people different based off skin color.

Abusing these humans into being (acting) straight wont remove gay from our species, as its existence will fade out naturally with time, and back in if required. Thats how evolution works. There are no clear cut steps, just a blend of mutations and extinctions.

So. Are you going to waste my time further? Needless to say you are either too stubborn or too stupid to get this. At the end of the day you and I dont really fucking matter, your mindset is almost extinct. And thats good enough for me.
User avatar
#45 - Vandeekree (08/27/2016) [-]
Ok, that helps get to the heart of the matter. So you are taking the "there are no real morals" stance. But that stance dictates that you have no moral ground either. Especially no moral ground to tell me not to discriminate against gays. Do you see the contradiction there?

And what emotions did I bring up exactly?

So if it's abuse to punish a gay person for being gay. Is it abuse to punish a murderer for murdering?

But do you see that this argument too does not touch upon if it is moral or not to do gay things? Even if it were deep seeded and even if you don't like being punished for it. You are not speaking about where morals come from or how being gay could be right or wrong. You're avoiding the entire issue and instead hoping that saying punishing a gay person is abuse but punishing a rapist isn't and that an animal doing gay things means a person can but an animal murdering doesn't mean a human should.

Do you really not see your contradictions at all?
#41 - I'm afraid I'm seeing the same thing. That you want to say ani…  [+] (4 new replies) 08/27/2016 on alpaca 0
User avatar
#42 - doctorcamden (08/27/2016) [-]
I never said animals should dictate our morals. Thats retarded (and similar to what you said).

Morals are a human concept. I brought that up when you claimed the things animals do are un-civilized and below us. You seem to be mistaken as to who said what. Thats okay, you're allowed to be slow.

The actions of animals dont fit into "black and white" and "right and wrong" when placed against a human scale of morality. Animals kill to survive. Rape to assert dominance etc. Humans, are animals, we have instinct much like our lesser evolved brethren, but we are self aware. Hence, evolved.

Still yet to contradict myself, lets continue shall we?

A Homosexuality equivilant appears in most species we observe. We also know that only dolphins have sex purely for pleasure outside of humanity. Meaning there are reasons for gay sex other than pleasure or perversion.

Following? Probably not knowing you.

Humans are more evolved, but that does not mean we are different to animals, we are still animals, we will aleays be animals. Gay sex is used in the animal kingdom for many many different reasons, but in apes, it is linked to dominance and strength.

Homosexuals usually aspire to be one of two things, dominante or submissive, which is a tie to our predecessors. Its where the Alpha, Beta mentality comes from.

Humans may, at some point, evolve to the point that we dont have homosexuality, but we arent there yet.

Now to my origional point, the cause of this waste of my time. You brought to the comments an outdated mentality dating back thousands of years, that we should deny the rights of certain individuals based off something that they cannot change, attraction. You would deny them the freedom of acting on their natural urges. Tell them that they are wrong to do so, which is the same environment that leads to suicide in 'closet' homosexuals, fear and anxiety is caused by your mentality, its ignorant and disgusting. And a blatant disregard to human rights and freedoms.

Its also the islamic mindset on homosexuality.
User avatar
#43 - Vandeekree (08/27/2016) [-]
And I understand all of that. But what you just explained, with the evolution and the alpha/beta, it was an explanation where homosexuality might have come from, but not an argument if it is moral or amoral.

So again, I ask why animals having gay sex dictates it being ok for humans?

This is why it's confusing. Even your last statement isn't an argument. You say that homosexuality is inherent and not a choice but then give no reason why. That's the argument we are having. And sure if you take for granted that point then the other stuff you say might be relevant. But you have to show that it is indeed true that homosexuality isn't a choice despite all other aspects of human emotion being a choice.

And yes. This is the Islamic feeling too. Islamist's also love their mothers so clearly loving one's mother is a bad thing. Don't try to use modern news channel tricks here please.

So this is where my confusion comes from. You keep saying things that don't matter to the argument. Or at least you say them without explaining how they tie in. Lets assume you're right and the alpha/beta thing is the reason homosexuality evolved. Does that make it right that it's a thing apes do so humans can? Apes also murder. Why is murder not ok then?
User avatar
#44 - doctorcamden (08/27/2016) [-]
I literally just explained why morals and the actions of animals arent comparable. You cant throw any action into a right or wrong scenario. Morals are a human construction based on social stigma over many millenia. They are part of what seperates us from the lesser animals, ie, a product of our self awareness.

You bring up emotion, emotions are chemical reactions in the brain. Irrelevant. Dont waste my time further.

My statement on islam was to parody your logic. You cant be that stupid im sure, so im going to take your reply as satirical.

Gay is a deep-seeded part of human psychology, its theorized there are traces of it in all humans. To treat a homosexual as sick or wrong and deny them the freedoms of others is a violation of human rights, its comparable to treating people different based off skin color.

Abusing these humans into being (acting) straight wont remove gay from our species, as its existence will fade out naturally with time, and back in if required. Thats how evolution works. There are no clear cut steps, just a blend of mutations and extinctions.

So. Are you going to waste my time further? Needless to say you are either too stubborn or too stupid to get this. At the end of the day you and I dont really fucking matter, your mindset is almost extinct. And thats good enough for me.
User avatar
#45 - Vandeekree (08/27/2016) [-]
Ok, that helps get to the heart of the matter. So you are taking the "there are no real morals" stance. But that stance dictates that you have no moral ground either. Especially no moral ground to tell me not to discriminate against gays. Do you see the contradiction there?

And what emotions did I bring up exactly?

So if it's abuse to punish a gay person for being gay. Is it abuse to punish a murderer for murdering?

But do you see that this argument too does not touch upon if it is moral or not to do gay things? Even if it were deep seeded and even if you don't like being punished for it. You are not speaking about where morals come from or how being gay could be right or wrong. You're avoiding the entire issue and instead hoping that saying punishing a gay person is abuse but punishing a rapist isn't and that an animal doing gay things means a person can but an animal murdering doesn't mean a human should.

Do you really not see your contradictions at all?
#39 - Well try to explain to me what exactly your argument is. …  [+] (6 new replies) 08/27/2016 on alpaca 0
User avatar
#40 - doctorcamden (08/27/2016) [-]
I have though. There are no contradictions. The information is there. Read it.
User avatar
#41 - Vandeekree (08/27/2016) [-]
I'm afraid I'm seeing the same thing. That you want to say animals should dictate our morals but not the ones you don't think should dictate our morals. And that humans are animals except that we are smart enough to have morals but those morals are dictated by animistic instinct and are thus not really morals but we also aren't autonomous robots of flesh that don't choose anything the way animals do. It makes no sense.
User avatar
#42 - doctorcamden (08/27/2016) [-]
I never said animals should dictate our morals. Thats retarded (and similar to what you said).

Morals are a human concept. I brought that up when you claimed the things animals do are un-civilized and below us. You seem to be mistaken as to who said what. Thats okay, you're allowed to be slow.

The actions of animals dont fit into "black and white" and "right and wrong" when placed against a human scale of morality. Animals kill to survive. Rape to assert dominance etc. Humans, are animals, we have instinct much like our lesser evolved brethren, but we are self aware. Hence, evolved.

Still yet to contradict myself, lets continue shall we?

A Homosexuality equivilant appears in most species we observe. We also know that only dolphins have sex purely for pleasure outside of humanity. Meaning there are reasons for gay sex other than pleasure or perversion.

Following? Probably not knowing you.

Humans are more evolved, but that does not mean we are different to animals, we are still animals, we will aleays be animals. Gay sex is used in the animal kingdom for many many different reasons, but in apes, it is linked to dominance and strength.

Homosexuals usually aspire to be one of two things, dominante or submissive, which is a tie to our predecessors. Its where the Alpha, Beta mentality comes from.

Humans may, at some point, evolve to the point that we dont have homosexuality, but we arent there yet.

Now to my origional point, the cause of this waste of my time. You brought to the comments an outdated mentality dating back thousands of years, that we should deny the rights of certain individuals based off something that they cannot change, attraction. You would deny them the freedom of acting on their natural urges. Tell them that they are wrong to do so, which is the same environment that leads to suicide in 'closet' homosexuals, fear and anxiety is caused by your mentality, its ignorant and disgusting. And a blatant disregard to human rights and freedoms.

Its also the islamic mindset on homosexuality.
User avatar
#43 - Vandeekree (08/27/2016) [-]
And I understand all of that. But what you just explained, with the evolution and the alpha/beta, it was an explanation where homosexuality might have come from, but not an argument if it is moral or amoral.

So again, I ask why animals having gay sex dictates it being ok for humans?

This is why it's confusing. Even your last statement isn't an argument. You say that homosexuality is inherent and not a choice but then give no reason why. That's the argument we are having. And sure if you take for granted that point then the other stuff you say might be relevant. But you have to show that it is indeed true that homosexuality isn't a choice despite all other aspects of human emotion being a choice.

And yes. This is the Islamic feeling too. Islamist's also love their mothers so clearly loving one's mother is a bad thing. Don't try to use modern news channel tricks here please.

So this is where my confusion comes from. You keep saying things that don't matter to the argument. Or at least you say them without explaining how they tie in. Lets assume you're right and the alpha/beta thing is the reason homosexuality evolved. Does that make it right that it's a thing apes do so humans can? Apes also murder. Why is murder not ok then?
User avatar
#44 - doctorcamden (08/27/2016) [-]
I literally just explained why morals and the actions of animals arent comparable. You cant throw any action into a right or wrong scenario. Morals are a human construction based on social stigma over many millenia. They are part of what seperates us from the lesser animals, ie, a product of our self awareness.

You bring up emotion, emotions are chemical reactions in the brain. Irrelevant. Dont waste my time further.

My statement on islam was to parody your logic. You cant be that stupid im sure, so im going to take your reply as satirical.

Gay is a deep-seeded part of human psychology, its theorized there are traces of it in all humans. To treat a homosexual as sick or wrong and deny them the freedoms of others is a violation of human rights, its comparable to treating people different based off skin color.

Abusing these humans into being (acting) straight wont remove gay from our species, as its existence will fade out naturally with time, and back in if required. Thats how evolution works. There are no clear cut steps, just a blend of mutations and extinctions.

So. Are you going to waste my time further? Needless to say you are either too stubborn or too stupid to get this. At the end of the day you and I dont really fucking matter, your mindset is almost extinct. And thats good enough for me.
User avatar
#45 - Vandeekree (08/27/2016) [-]
Ok, that helps get to the heart of the matter. So you are taking the "there are no real morals" stance. But that stance dictates that you have no moral ground either. Especially no moral ground to tell me not to discriminate against gays. Do you see the contradiction there?

And what emotions did I bring up exactly?

So if it's abuse to punish a gay person for being gay. Is it abuse to punish a murderer for murdering?

But do you see that this argument too does not touch upon if it is moral or not to do gay things? Even if it were deep seeded and even if you don't like being punished for it. You are not speaking about where morals come from or how being gay could be right or wrong. You're avoiding the entire issue and instead hoping that saying punishing a gay person is abuse but punishing a rapist isn't and that an animal doing gay things means a person can but an animal murdering doesn't mean a human should.

Do you really not see your contradictions at all?
#37 - Exactly. So when human does homosexuality, it's a choice. Bec…  [+] (8 new replies) 08/27/2016 on alpaca 0
User avatar
#38 - doctorcamden (08/27/2016) [-]
The vandeekree method:

See arguement.
Ignore it.
Misquote it.
Act smug.

I've never met a man so devoted to his bait. This is beyond itumblr.
User avatar
#39 - Vandeekree (08/27/2016) [-]
Well try to explain to me what exactly your argument is.

Believe it or not, I am quite sure I completely understand your argument as you keep contradicting yourself when you talk about how humans are animals except that they aren't.

I have been over this same argument many many times and believe myself to very thoroughly understand it.

So please, in the simplest and easiest to understand why you can, try to explain your exact argument.
User avatar
#40 - doctorcamden (08/27/2016) [-]
I have though. There are no contradictions. The information is there. Read it.
User avatar
#41 - Vandeekree (08/27/2016) [-]
I'm afraid I'm seeing the same thing. That you want to say animals should dictate our morals but not the ones you don't think should dictate our morals. And that humans are animals except that we are smart enough to have morals but those morals are dictated by animistic instinct and are thus not really morals but we also aren't autonomous robots of flesh that don't choose anything the way animals do. It makes no sense.
User avatar
#42 - doctorcamden (08/27/2016) [-]
I never said animals should dictate our morals. Thats retarded (and similar to what you said).

Morals are a human concept. I brought that up when you claimed the things animals do are un-civilized and below us. You seem to be mistaken as to who said what. Thats okay, you're allowed to be slow.

The actions of animals dont fit into "black and white" and "right and wrong" when placed against a human scale of morality. Animals kill to survive. Rape to assert dominance etc. Humans, are animals, we have instinct much like our lesser evolved brethren, but we are self aware. Hence, evolved.

Still yet to contradict myself, lets continue shall we?

A Homosexuality equivilant appears in most species we observe. We also know that only dolphins have sex purely for pleasure outside of humanity. Meaning there are reasons for gay sex other than pleasure or perversion.

Following? Probably not knowing you.

Humans are more evolved, but that does not mean we are different to animals, we are still animals, we will aleays be animals. Gay sex is used in the animal kingdom for many many different reasons, but in apes, it is linked to dominance and strength.

Homosexuals usually aspire to be one of two things, dominante or submissive, which is a tie to our predecessors. Its where the Alpha, Beta mentality comes from.

Humans may, at some point, evolve to the point that we dont have homosexuality, but we arent there yet.

Now to my origional point, the cause of this waste of my time. You brought to the comments an outdated mentality dating back thousands of years, that we should deny the rights of certain individuals based off something that they cannot change, attraction. You would deny them the freedom of acting on their natural urges. Tell them that they are wrong to do so, which is the same environment that leads to suicide in 'closet' homosexuals, fear and anxiety is caused by your mentality, its ignorant and disgusting. And a blatant disregard to human rights and freedoms.

Its also the islamic mindset on homosexuality.
User avatar
#43 - Vandeekree (08/27/2016) [-]
And I understand all of that. But what you just explained, with the evolution and the alpha/beta, it was an explanation where homosexuality might have come from, but not an argument if it is moral or amoral.

So again, I ask why animals having gay sex dictates it being ok for humans?

This is why it's confusing. Even your last statement isn't an argument. You say that homosexuality is inherent and not a choice but then give no reason why. That's the argument we are having. And sure if you take for granted that point then the other stuff you say might be relevant. But you have to show that it is indeed true that homosexuality isn't a choice despite all other aspects of human emotion being a choice.

And yes. This is the Islamic feeling too. Islamist's also love their mothers so clearly loving one's mother is a bad thing. Don't try to use modern news channel tricks here please.

So this is where my confusion comes from. You keep saying things that don't matter to the argument. Or at least you say them without explaining how they tie in. Lets assume you're right and the alpha/beta thing is the reason homosexuality evolved. Does that make it right that it's a thing apes do so humans can? Apes also murder. Why is murder not ok then?
User avatar
#44 - doctorcamden (08/27/2016) [-]
I literally just explained why morals and the actions of animals arent comparable. You cant throw any action into a right or wrong scenario. Morals are a human construction based on social stigma over many millenia. They are part of what seperates us from the lesser animals, ie, a product of our self awareness.

You bring up emotion, emotions are chemical reactions in the brain. Irrelevant. Dont waste my time further.

My statement on islam was to parody your logic. You cant be that stupid im sure, so im going to take your reply as satirical.

Gay is a deep-seeded part of human psychology, its theorized there are traces of it in all humans. To treat a homosexual as sick or wrong and deny them the freedoms of others is a violation of human rights, its comparable to treating people different based off skin color.

Abusing these humans into being (acting) straight wont remove gay from our species, as its existence will fade out naturally with time, and back in if required. Thats how evolution works. There are no clear cut steps, just a blend of mutations and extinctions.

So. Are you going to waste my time further? Needless to say you are either too stubborn or too stupid to get this. At the end of the day you and I dont really fucking matter, your mindset is almost extinct. And thats good enough for me.
User avatar
#45 - Vandeekree (08/27/2016) [-]
Ok, that helps get to the heart of the matter. So you are taking the "there are no real morals" stance. But that stance dictates that you have no moral ground either. Especially no moral ground to tell me not to discriminate against gays. Do you see the contradiction there?

And what emotions did I bring up exactly?

So if it's abuse to punish a gay person for being gay. Is it abuse to punish a murderer for murdering?

But do you see that this argument too does not touch upon if it is moral or not to do gay things? Even if it were deep seeded and even if you don't like being punished for it. You are not speaking about where morals come from or how being gay could be right or wrong. You're avoiding the entire issue and instead hoping that saying punishing a gay person is abuse but punishing a rapist isn't and that an animal doing gay things means a person can but an animal murdering doesn't mean a human should.

Do you really not see your contradictions at all?
#35 - No, it being a state of mind doesn't, by itself, imply there's…  [+] (10 new replies) 08/27/2016 on alpaca 0
User avatar
#36 - doctorcamden (08/27/2016) [-]
You just falously mixed my answer with your own logic. Just because animals do something doesn't make it a good choice morally, yes. But that is only comparible to homosexual behavior if one believes homosexuality to be a choice, which it is not. It also polarizes all actions animals take into right and wrong, neither of which exist in the animal kingdom. Morality, empathy law are all human concepts.

My use of gay behaviour in animals was to illustrate that it appears naturally in nature. At that point in my arguement, "right and wrong" were not factors. You could claim your bait successful, as you have managed to use a quote out of context to further push an agruement that science does not support, which has raised my ire.

I will again present the fact that humans are animals, we are driven by instinct as often as we are not. Attraction is nature.

It is also worth mentioning humans and dolphins are the only two species known to partake in sexual intercourse for purposes of pleasure only. By your logic, an animal has sex purely for pleasure, so we shouldn't? Or maybe actions dont fit into a moral 'Black and White' standard.
User avatar
#37 - Vandeekree (08/27/2016) [-]
Exactly. So when human does homosexuality, it's a choice. Because, like murder, a human can understand what they are doing and choose it. Humans are more complex than animals. Complex enough to choose every action we take. Including homosexuality. Do you see why your argument doesn't work now?

But this is no bait. It's simply that you don't seem to grasp your own argument. Likely because it is repeated from some other place rather than understood.

And I agree it appears naturally in nature. Naturally for those animals. But not for humans. Just as it would be unnatural for a human to try and breath water despite it being natural for a fish.

But no, attraction is not nature. The desire for sex is nature, but what you direct that towards is wholly nurture. That's why you see people who will direct their lust towards inanimate objects, towards ideas, towards animals, children, and just about anything one can imagine. But it's not always ok to let yourself feel such lusts and fully within a person to reject or control such lusts.

And your last argument is a fallacy as well. Because if you want to say that actions don't fall into a moral standard then nothing is wrong or right. Including saying that gay people are doing wrong.
User avatar
#38 - doctorcamden (08/27/2016) [-]
The vandeekree method:

See arguement.
Ignore it.
Misquote it.
Act smug.

I've never met a man so devoted to his bait. This is beyond itumblr.
User avatar
#39 - Vandeekree (08/27/2016) [-]
Well try to explain to me what exactly your argument is.

Believe it or not, I am quite sure I completely understand your argument as you keep contradicting yourself when you talk about how humans are animals except that they aren't.

I have been over this same argument many many times and believe myself to very thoroughly understand it.

So please, in the simplest and easiest to understand why you can, try to explain your exact argument.
User avatar
#40 - doctorcamden (08/27/2016) [-]
I have though. There are no contradictions. The information is there. Read it.
User avatar
#41 - Vandeekree (08/27/2016) [-]
I'm afraid I'm seeing the same thing. That you want to say animals should dictate our morals but not the ones you don't think should dictate our morals. And that humans are animals except that we are smart enough to have morals but those morals are dictated by animistic instinct and are thus not really morals but we also aren't autonomous robots of flesh that don't choose anything the way animals do. It makes no sense.
User avatar
#42 - doctorcamden (08/27/2016) [-]
I never said animals should dictate our morals. Thats retarded (and similar to what you said).

Morals are a human concept. I brought that up when you claimed the things animals do are un-civilized and below us. You seem to be mistaken as to who said what. Thats okay, you're allowed to be slow.

The actions of animals dont fit into "black and white" and "right and wrong" when placed against a human scale of morality. Animals kill to survive. Rape to assert dominance etc. Humans, are animals, we have instinct much like our lesser evolved brethren, but we are self aware. Hence, evolved.

Still yet to contradict myself, lets continue shall we?

A Homosexuality equivilant appears in most species we observe. We also know that only dolphins have sex purely for pleasure outside of humanity. Meaning there are reasons for gay sex other than pleasure or perversion.

Following? Probably not knowing you.

Humans are more evolved, but that does not mean we are different to animals, we are still animals, we will aleays be animals. Gay sex is used in the animal kingdom for many many different reasons, but in apes, it is linked to dominance and strength.

Homosexuals usually aspire to be one of two things, dominante or submissive, which is a tie to our predecessors. Its where the Alpha, Beta mentality comes from.

Humans may, at some point, evolve to the point that we dont have homosexuality, but we arent there yet.

Now to my origional point, the cause of this waste of my time. You brought to the comments an outdated mentality dating back thousands of years, that we should deny the rights of certain individuals based off something that they cannot change, attraction. You would deny them the freedom of acting on their natural urges. Tell them that they are wrong to do so, which is the same environment that leads to suicide in 'closet' homosexuals, fear and anxiety is caused by your mentality, its ignorant and disgusting. And a blatant disregard to human rights and freedoms.

Its also the islamic mindset on homosexuality.
User avatar
#43 - Vandeekree (08/27/2016) [-]
And I understand all of that. But what you just explained, with the evolution and the alpha/beta, it was an explanation where homosexuality might have come from, but not an argument if it is moral or amoral.

So again, I ask why animals having gay sex dictates it being ok for humans?

This is why it's confusing. Even your last statement isn't an argument. You say that homosexuality is inherent and not a choice but then give no reason why. That's the argument we are having. And sure if you take for granted that point then the other stuff you say might be relevant. But you have to show that it is indeed true that homosexuality isn't a choice despite all other aspects of human emotion being a choice.

And yes. This is the Islamic feeling too. Islamist's also love their mothers so clearly loving one's mother is a bad thing. Don't try to use modern news channel tricks here please.

So this is where my confusion comes from. You keep saying things that don't matter to the argument. Or at least you say them without explaining how they tie in. Lets assume you're right and the alpha/beta thing is the reason homosexuality evolved. Does that make it right that it's a thing apes do so humans can? Apes also murder. Why is murder not ok then?
User avatar
#44 - doctorcamden (08/27/2016) [-]
I literally just explained why morals and the actions of animals arent comparable. You cant throw any action into a right or wrong scenario. Morals are a human construction based on social stigma over many millenia. They are part of what seperates us from the lesser animals, ie, a product of our self awareness.

You bring up emotion, emotions are chemical reactions in the brain. Irrelevant. Dont waste my time further.

My statement on islam was to parody your logic. You cant be that stupid im sure, so im going to take your reply as satirical.

Gay is a deep-seeded part of human psychology, its theorized there are traces of it in all humans. To treat a homosexual as sick or wrong and deny them the freedoms of others is a violation of human rights, its comparable to treating people different based off skin color.

Abusing these humans into being (acting) straight wont remove gay from our species, as its existence will fade out naturally with time, and back in if required. Thats how evolution works. There are no clear cut steps, just a blend of mutations and extinctions.

So. Are you going to waste my time further? Needless to say you are either too stubborn or too stupid to get this. At the end of the day you and I dont really fucking matter, your mindset is almost extinct. And thats good enough for me.
User avatar
#45 - Vandeekree (08/27/2016) [-]
Ok, that helps get to the heart of the matter. So you are taking the "there are no real morals" stance. But that stance dictates that you have no moral ground either. Especially no moral ground to tell me not to discriminate against gays. Do you see the contradiction there?

And what emotions did I bring up exactly?

So if it's abuse to punish a gay person for being gay. Is it abuse to punish a murderer for murdering?

But do you see that this argument too does not touch upon if it is moral or not to do gay things? Even if it were deep seeded and even if you don't like being punished for it. You are not speaking about where morals come from or how being gay could be right or wrong. You're avoiding the entire issue and instead hoping that saying punishing a gay person is abuse but punishing a rapist isn't and that an animal doing gay things means a person can but an animal murdering doesn't mean a human should.

Do you really not see your contradictions at all?
#33 - But if you were to meet a man and suddenly realized that he is…  [+] (12 new replies) 08/27/2016 on alpaca 0
User avatar
#34 - doctorcamden (08/27/2016) [-]
Its tough to meet a man thats "my type" when girls with black hair blue eyes and wide hips get me harder than steel. Like my girlfriend gor example.

Saying gay is a state of mind implies there is something wrong with it, which is not at all the case as, like I said, we can observe the actions of almost any species and see gay behavior.

To say gay is built in does not de-humanize gays, its quite the opposite. Humans are animals, we act in instinct ad often as we don't.
Attraction is formed through visual ques and pheromones, neither of which we can alter in ourselves.

Homosexuals are often linked to depression and anxiety. Correct. This, however, is almost always linked to social stigmas, gay was (and in some places, still is) treated like an abnormality. Leading to stress and fear for rejection, especially from parents and close loved ones. This is a human reaction, as we are self aware, we are an animal that relies on being social and "fitting in".

As for your closing statement, I am only further convinced you are baiting for replies based off the fact you simply spat my words back at me with venom, rather than bringing anything new to the debate. As such, this will be my final reply.

Have a good day, best of luck in future baiting.
User avatar
#35 - Vandeekree (08/27/2016) [-]
No, it being a state of mind doesn't, by itself, imply there's something wrong with it. What it does imply is that it's a choice. And a choice can be judged as right or wrong.

So is the choice to be gay right or wrong? Well going by your evidence that animals do it so it must be right, then murder must also be alright sense animals do it. Rape must also be fine because animals engage in it all the time.

And we can certainly alter our own reactions the what we perceive around us. TO say otherwise is to subscribe to a deterministic view but if you agree with that view then there is nothing wrong with anything, and that includes murder, rape, and saying that gay people are wrong.(Sense you seem to think that is a bad thing to do)

And even if those mental conditions are linked to how gays are treated in society, then it doesn't change the argument. It still shows it is a negative thing to be gay. You just said humans are only instinct driven animals, and so, if the majority of society is hating on gays, then disliking and hating gays must be the natural thing.

The problem with what you are trying to defend is that it's a subjective system of morality. There is nothing behind it. It is based on feelings and thus can change into anything being right or wrong. This is the only moral path that would allow someone to defend an act that has no other reason to happen than "Because homosexuals want to do it"

Compare this to absolute systems of morality and you will realize it's not an argument at all.
User avatar
#36 - doctorcamden (08/27/2016) [-]
You just falously mixed my answer with your own logic. Just because animals do something doesn't make it a good choice morally, yes. But that is only comparible to homosexual behavior if one believes homosexuality to be a choice, which it is not. It also polarizes all actions animals take into right and wrong, neither of which exist in the animal kingdom. Morality, empathy law are all human concepts.

My use of gay behaviour in animals was to illustrate that it appears naturally in nature. At that point in my arguement, "right and wrong" were not factors. You could claim your bait successful, as you have managed to use a quote out of context to further push an agruement that science does not support, which has raised my ire.

I will again present the fact that humans are animals, we are driven by instinct as often as we are not. Attraction is nature.

It is also worth mentioning humans and dolphins are the only two species known to partake in sexual intercourse for purposes of pleasure only. By your logic, an animal has sex purely for pleasure, so we shouldn't? Or maybe actions dont fit into a moral 'Black and White' standard.
User avatar
#37 - Vandeekree (08/27/2016) [-]
Exactly. So when human does homosexuality, it's a choice. Because, like murder, a human can understand what they are doing and choose it. Humans are more complex than animals. Complex enough to choose every action we take. Including homosexuality. Do you see why your argument doesn't work now?

But this is no bait. It's simply that you don't seem to grasp your own argument. Likely because it is repeated from some other place rather than understood.

And I agree it appears naturally in nature. Naturally for those animals. But not for humans. Just as it would be unnatural for a human to try and breath water despite it being natural for a fish.

But no, attraction is not nature. The desire for sex is nature, but what you direct that towards is wholly nurture. That's why you see people who will direct their lust towards inanimate objects, towards ideas, towards animals, children, and just about anything one can imagine. But it's not always ok to let yourself feel such lusts and fully within a person to reject or control such lusts.

And your last argument is a fallacy as well. Because if you want to say that actions don't fall into a moral standard then nothing is wrong or right. Including saying that gay people are doing wrong.
User avatar
#38 - doctorcamden (08/27/2016) [-]
The vandeekree method:

See arguement.
Ignore it.
Misquote it.
Act smug.

I've never met a man so devoted to his bait. This is beyond itumblr.
User avatar
#39 - Vandeekree (08/27/2016) [-]
Well try to explain to me what exactly your argument is.

Believe it or not, I am quite sure I completely understand your argument as you keep contradicting yourself when you talk about how humans are animals except that they aren't.

I have been over this same argument many many times and believe myself to very thoroughly understand it.

So please, in the simplest and easiest to understand why you can, try to explain your exact argument.
User avatar
#40 - doctorcamden (08/27/2016) [-]
I have though. There are no contradictions. The information is there. Read it.
User avatar
#41 - Vandeekree (08/27/2016) [-]
I'm afraid I'm seeing the same thing. That you want to say animals should dictate our morals but not the ones you don't think should dictate our morals. And that humans are animals except that we are smart enough to have morals but those morals are dictated by animistic instinct and are thus not really morals but we also aren't autonomous robots of flesh that don't choose anything the way animals do. It makes no sense.
User avatar
#42 - doctorcamden (08/27/2016) [-]
I never said animals should dictate our morals. Thats retarded (and similar to what you said).

Morals are a human concept. I brought that up when you claimed the things animals do are un-civilized and below us. You seem to be mistaken as to who said what. Thats okay, you're allowed to be slow.

The actions of animals dont fit into "black and white" and "right and wrong" when placed against a human scale of morality. Animals kill to survive. Rape to assert dominance etc. Humans, are animals, we have instinct much like our lesser evolved brethren, but we are self aware. Hence, evolved.

Still yet to contradict myself, lets continue shall we?

A Homosexuality equivilant appears in most species we observe. We also know that only dolphins have sex purely for pleasure outside of humanity. Meaning there are reasons for gay sex other than pleasure or perversion.

Following? Probably not knowing you.

Humans are more evolved, but that does not mean we are different to animals, we are still animals, we will aleays be animals. Gay sex is used in the animal kingdom for many many different reasons, but in apes, it is linked to dominance and strength.

Homosexuals usually aspire to be one of two things, dominante or submissive, which is a tie to our predecessors. Its where the Alpha, Beta mentality comes from.

Humans may, at some point, evolve to the point that we dont have homosexuality, but we arent there yet.

Now to my origional point, the cause of this waste of my time. You brought to the comments an outdated mentality dating back thousands of years, that we should deny the rights of certain individuals based off something that they cannot change, attraction. You would deny them the freedom of acting on their natural urges. Tell them that they are wrong to do so, which is the same environment that leads to suicide in 'closet' homosexuals, fear and anxiety is caused by your mentality, its ignorant and disgusting. And a blatant disregard to human rights and freedoms.

Its also the islamic mindset on homosexuality.
User avatar
#43 - Vandeekree (08/27/2016) [-]
And I understand all of that. But what you just explained, with the evolution and the alpha/beta, it was an explanation where homosexuality might have come from, but not an argument if it is moral or amoral.

So again, I ask why animals having gay sex dictates it being ok for humans?

This is why it's confusing. Even your last statement isn't an argument. You say that homosexuality is inherent and not a choice but then give no reason why. That's the argument we are having. And sure if you take for granted that point then the other stuff you say might be relevant. But you have to show that it is indeed true that homosexuality isn't a choice despite all other aspects of human emotion being a choice.

And yes. This is the Islamic feeling too. Islamist's also love their mothers so clearly loving one's mother is a bad thing. Don't try to use modern news channel tricks here please.

So this is where my confusion comes from. You keep saying things that don't matter to the argument. Or at least you say them without explaining how they tie in. Lets assume you're right and the alpha/beta thing is the reason homosexuality evolved. Does that make it right that it's a thing apes do so humans can? Apes also murder. Why is murder not ok then?
User avatar
#44 - doctorcamden (08/27/2016) [-]
I literally just explained why morals and the actions of animals arent comparable. You cant throw any action into a right or wrong scenario. Morals are a human construction based on social stigma over many millenia. They are part of what seperates us from the lesser animals, ie, a product of our self awareness.

You bring up emotion, emotions are chemical reactions in the brain. Irrelevant. Dont waste my time further.

My statement on islam was to parody your logic. You cant be that stupid im sure, so im going to take your reply as satirical.

Gay is a deep-seeded part of human psychology, its theorized there are traces of it in all humans. To treat a homosexual as sick or wrong and deny them the freedoms of others is a violation of human rights, its comparable to treating people different based off skin color.

Abusing these humans into being (acting) straight wont remove gay from our species, as its existence will fade out naturally with time, and back in if required. Thats how evolution works. There are no clear cut steps, just a blend of mutations and extinctions.

So. Are you going to waste my time further? Needless to say you are either too stubborn or too stupid to get this. At the end of the day you and I dont really fucking matter, your mindset is almost extinct. And thats good enough for me.
User avatar
#45 - Vandeekree (08/27/2016) [-]
Ok, that helps get to the heart of the matter. So you are taking the "there are no real morals" stance. But that stance dictates that you have no moral ground either. Especially no moral ground to tell me not to discriminate against gays. Do you see the contradiction there?

And what emotions did I bring up exactly?

So if it's abuse to punish a gay person for being gay. Is it abuse to punish a murderer for murdering?

But do you see that this argument too does not touch upon if it is moral or not to do gay things? Even if it were deep seeded and even if you don't like being punished for it. You are not speaking about where morals come from or how being gay could be right or wrong. You're avoiding the entire issue and instead hoping that saying punishing a gay person is abuse but punishing a rapist isn't and that an animal doing gay things means a person can but an animal murdering doesn't mean a human should.

Do you really not see your contradictions at all?
#31 - With so many documented sources and well stated facts, I can d…  [+] (14 new replies) 08/27/2016 on alpaca 0
User avatar
#32 - doctorcamden (08/27/2016) [-]
Im straight. The idea of having sex with a man disgusts me. I believe as people, they deserve the same rights and freedoms that others have.

Gay is not a state of mind, its built in. Almost every species we know of has been observed partaking in the act of gay intercourse. For example baboons use it as a dominance act. The alpha asserts his doninance by dominating lesser males sexually.

A small amount of research will do you some good. I am on my phone so unfortunately I am unable to post multiple links to studies, though im thoroughly convinced you are trying to bait answers anyway.

Have a good day.
User avatar
#33 - Vandeekree (08/27/2016) [-]
But if you were to meet a man and suddenly realized that he is just your type, you would have sex with him? Of course you would, because there's nothing wrong with it in your mind, right?

The rest of your remarks doesn't really have anything to do with what I said but lets address them anyway.

Gay is certainly a state of mind. To say otherwise is to suggest that gay people are not human. That they somehow are driven by instinct and forced into action while all other people choose and can be held accountable for the things they do. You choose what you like based on the factors around you. People say Pepsi tastes better than Coke and yet will still choose Coke because it's classic.

And lets not compare gay people to animals. Yes sexual debauchery takes place in the animal kingdom but they are, in fact, animals. There is also constant rape, murder, incest, and stealing. No one would argue these to be qualities humans should emulate so why pick out homosexuality as one good thing animals do out of a slew of morally deplorable acts for a human?

And research is exactly what I would encourage you to do. Teach yourself about the studies that link homosexuality to other mental illness, to being a mental illness in and of itself, and how psychiatrists were threatened into changing it from being classified as a mental illness without any scientific reason to do so. Teach yourself about the much higher rate of domestic abuse, drug use, infidelity, and std's among the homosexual population.

The truth is out there my friend. You have but to stop rejecting it.
User avatar
#34 - doctorcamden (08/27/2016) [-]
Its tough to meet a man thats "my type" when girls with black hair blue eyes and wide hips get me harder than steel. Like my girlfriend gor example.

Saying gay is a state of mind implies there is something wrong with it, which is not at all the case as, like I said, we can observe the actions of almost any species and see gay behavior.

To say gay is built in does not de-humanize gays, its quite the opposite. Humans are animals, we act in instinct ad often as we don't.
Attraction is formed through visual ques and pheromones, neither of which we can alter in ourselves.

Homosexuals are often linked to depression and anxiety. Correct. This, however, is almost always linked to social stigmas, gay was (and in some places, still is) treated like an abnormality. Leading to stress and fear for rejection, especially from parents and close loved ones. This is a human reaction, as we are self aware, we are an animal that relies on being social and "fitting in".

As for your closing statement, I am only further convinced you are baiting for replies based off the fact you simply spat my words back at me with venom, rather than bringing anything new to the debate. As such, this will be my final reply.

Have a good day, best of luck in future baiting.
User avatar
#35 - Vandeekree (08/27/2016) [-]
No, it being a state of mind doesn't, by itself, imply there's something wrong with it. What it does imply is that it's a choice. And a choice can be judged as right or wrong.

So is the choice to be gay right or wrong? Well going by your evidence that animals do it so it must be right, then murder must also be alright sense animals do it. Rape must also be fine because animals engage in it all the time.

And we can certainly alter our own reactions the what we perceive around us. TO say otherwise is to subscribe to a deterministic view but if you agree with that view then there is nothing wrong with anything, and that includes murder, rape, and saying that gay people are wrong.(Sense you seem to think that is a bad thing to do)

And even if those mental conditions are linked to how gays are treated in society, then it doesn't change the argument. It still shows it is a negative thing to be gay. You just said humans are only instinct driven animals, and so, if the majority of society is hating on gays, then disliking and hating gays must be the natural thing.

The problem with what you are trying to defend is that it's a subjective system of morality. There is nothing behind it. It is based on feelings and thus can change into anything being right or wrong. This is the only moral path that would allow someone to defend an act that has no other reason to happen than "Because homosexuals want to do it"

Compare this to absolute systems of morality and you will realize it's not an argument at all.
User avatar
#36 - doctorcamden (08/27/2016) [-]
You just falously mixed my answer with your own logic. Just because animals do something doesn't make it a good choice morally, yes. But that is only comparible to homosexual behavior if one believes homosexuality to be a choice, which it is not. It also polarizes all actions animals take into right and wrong, neither of which exist in the animal kingdom. Morality, empathy law are all human concepts.

My use of gay behaviour in animals was to illustrate that it appears naturally in nature. At that point in my arguement, "right and wrong" were not factors. You could claim your bait successful, as you have managed to use a quote out of context to further push an agruement that science does not support, which has raised my ire.

I will again present the fact that humans are animals, we are driven by instinct as often as we are not. Attraction is nature.

It is also worth mentioning humans and dolphins are the only two species known to partake in sexual intercourse for purposes of pleasure only. By your logic, an animal has sex purely for pleasure, so we shouldn't? Or maybe actions dont fit into a moral 'Black and White' standard.
User avatar
#37 - Vandeekree (08/27/2016) [-]
Exactly. So when human does homosexuality, it's a choice. Because, like murder, a human can understand what they are doing and choose it. Humans are more complex than animals. Complex enough to choose every action we take. Including homosexuality. Do you see why your argument doesn't work now?

But this is no bait. It's simply that you don't seem to grasp your own argument. Likely because it is repeated from some other place rather than understood.

And I agree it appears naturally in nature. Naturally for those animals. But not for humans. Just as it would be unnatural for a human to try and breath water despite it being natural for a fish.

But no, attraction is not nature. The desire for sex is nature, but what you direct that towards is wholly nurture. That's why you see people who will direct their lust towards inanimate objects, towards ideas, towards animals, children, and just about anything one can imagine. But it's not always ok to let yourself feel such lusts and fully within a person to reject or control such lusts.

And your last argument is a fallacy as well. Because if you want to say that actions don't fall into a moral standard then nothing is wrong or right. Including saying that gay people are doing wrong.
User avatar
#38 - doctorcamden (08/27/2016) [-]
The vandeekree method:

See arguement.
Ignore it.
Misquote it.
Act smug.

I've never met a man so devoted to his bait. This is beyond itumblr.
User avatar
#39 - Vandeekree (08/27/2016) [-]
Well try to explain to me what exactly your argument is.

Believe it or not, I am quite sure I completely understand your argument as you keep contradicting yourself when you talk about how humans are animals except that they aren't.

I have been over this same argument many many times and believe myself to very thoroughly understand it.

So please, in the simplest and easiest to understand why you can, try to explain your exact argument.
User avatar
#40 - doctorcamden (08/27/2016) [-]
I have though. There are no contradictions. The information is there. Read it.
User avatar
#41 - Vandeekree (08/27/2016) [-]
I'm afraid I'm seeing the same thing. That you want to say animals should dictate our morals but not the ones you don't think should dictate our morals. And that humans are animals except that we are smart enough to have morals but those morals are dictated by animistic instinct and are thus not really morals but we also aren't autonomous robots of flesh that don't choose anything the way animals do. It makes no sense.
User avatar
#42 - doctorcamden (08/27/2016) [-]
I never said animals should dictate our morals. Thats retarded (and similar to what you said).

Morals are a human concept. I brought that up when you claimed the things animals do are un-civilized and below us. You seem to be mistaken as to who said what. Thats okay, you're allowed to be slow.

The actions of animals dont fit into "black and white" and "right and wrong" when placed against a human scale of morality. Animals kill to survive. Rape to assert dominance etc. Humans, are animals, we have instinct much like our lesser evolved brethren, but we are self aware. Hence, evolved.

Still yet to contradict myself, lets continue shall we?

A Homosexuality equivilant appears in most species we observe. We also know that only dolphins have sex purely for pleasure outside of humanity. Meaning there are reasons for gay sex other than pleasure or perversion.

Following? Probably not knowing you.

Humans are more evolved, but that does not mean we are different to animals, we are still animals, we will aleays be animals. Gay sex is used in the animal kingdom for many many different reasons, but in apes, it is linked to dominance and strength.

Homosexuals usually aspire to be one of two things, dominante or submissive, which is a tie to our predecessors. Its where the Alpha, Beta mentality comes from.

Humans may, at some point, evolve to the point that we dont have homosexuality, but we arent there yet.

Now to my origional point, the cause of this waste of my time. You brought to the comments an outdated mentality dating back thousands of years, that we should deny the rights of certain individuals based off something that they cannot change, attraction. You would deny them the freedom of acting on their natural urges. Tell them that they are wrong to do so, which is the same environment that leads to suicide in 'closet' homosexuals, fear and anxiety is caused by your mentality, its ignorant and disgusting. And a blatant disregard to human rights and freedoms.

Its also the islamic mindset on homosexuality.
User avatar
#43 - Vandeekree (08/27/2016) [-]
And I understand all of that. But what you just explained, with the evolution and the alpha/beta, it was an explanation where homosexuality might have come from, but not an argument if it is moral or amoral.

So again, I ask why animals having gay sex dictates it being ok for humans?

This is why it's confusing. Even your last statement isn't an argument. You say that homosexuality is inherent and not a choice but then give no reason why. That's the argument we are having. And sure if you take for granted that point then the other stuff you say might be relevant. But you have to show that it is indeed true that homosexuality isn't a choice despite all other aspects of human emotion being a choice.

And yes. This is the Islamic feeling too. Islamist's also love their mothers so clearly loving one's mother is a bad thing. Don't try to use modern news channel tricks here please.

So this is where my confusion comes from. You keep saying things that don't matter to the argument. Or at least you say them without explaining how they tie in. Lets assume you're right and the alpha/beta thing is the reason homosexuality evolved. Does that make it right that it's a thing apes do so humans can? Apes also murder. Why is murder not ok then?
User avatar
#44 - doctorcamden (08/27/2016) [-]
I literally just explained why morals and the actions of animals arent comparable. You cant throw any action into a right or wrong scenario. Morals are a human construction based on social stigma over many millenia. They are part of what seperates us from the lesser animals, ie, a product of our self awareness.

You bring up emotion, emotions are chemical reactions in the brain. Irrelevant. Dont waste my time further.

My statement on islam was to parody your logic. You cant be that stupid im sure, so im going to take your reply as satirical.

Gay is a deep-seeded part of human psychology, its theorized there are traces of it in all humans. To treat a homosexual as sick or wrong and deny them the freedoms of others is a violation of human rights, its comparable to treating people different based off skin color.

Abusing these humans into being (acting) straight wont remove gay from our species, as its existence will fade out naturally with time, and back in if required. Thats how evolution works. There are no clear cut steps, just a blend of mutations and extinctions.

So. Are you going to waste my time further? Needless to say you are either too stubborn or too stupid to get this. At the end of the day you and I dont really fucking matter, your mindset is almost extinct. And thats good enough for me.
User avatar
#45 - Vandeekree (08/27/2016) [-]
Ok, that helps get to the heart of the matter. So you are taking the "there are no real morals" stance. But that stance dictates that you have no moral ground either. Especially no moral ground to tell me not to discriminate against gays. Do you see the contradiction there?

And what emotions did I bring up exactly?

So if it's abuse to punish a gay person for being gay. Is it abuse to punish a murderer for murdering?

But do you see that this argument too does not touch upon if it is moral or not to do gay things? Even if it were deep seeded and even if you don't like being punished for it. You are not speaking about where morals come from or how being gay could be right or wrong. You're avoiding the entire issue and instead hoping that saying punishing a gay person is abuse but punishing a rapist isn't and that an animal doing gay things means a person can but an animal murdering doesn't mean a human should.

Do you really not see your contradictions at all?
#29 - But it's a valid statement because gay is a state of mind. Not…  [+] (16 new replies) 08/26/2016 on alpaca 0
User avatar
#30 - doctorcamden (08/27/2016) [-]
No.
User avatar
#31 - Vandeekree (08/27/2016) [-]
With so many documented sources and well stated facts, I can do naught but concede to your point.
User avatar
#32 - doctorcamden (08/27/2016) [-]
Im straight. The idea of having sex with a man disgusts me. I believe as people, they deserve the same rights and freedoms that others have.

Gay is not a state of mind, its built in. Almost every species we know of has been observed partaking in the act of gay intercourse. For example baboons use it as a dominance act. The alpha asserts his doninance by dominating lesser males sexually.

A small amount of research will do you some good. I am on my phone so unfortunately I am unable to post multiple links to studies, though im thoroughly convinced you are trying to bait answers anyway.

Have a good day.
User avatar
#33 - Vandeekree (08/27/2016) [-]
But if you were to meet a man and suddenly realized that he is just your type, you would have sex with him? Of course you would, because there's nothing wrong with it in your mind, right?

The rest of your remarks doesn't really have anything to do with what I said but lets address them anyway.

Gay is certainly a state of mind. To say otherwise is to suggest that gay people are not human. That they somehow are driven by instinct and forced into action while all other people choose and can be held accountable for the things they do. You choose what you like based on the factors around you. People say Pepsi tastes better than Coke and yet will still choose Coke because it's classic.

And lets not compare gay people to animals. Yes sexual debauchery takes place in the animal kingdom but they are, in fact, animals. There is also constant rape, murder, incest, and stealing. No one would argue these to be qualities humans should emulate so why pick out homosexuality as one good thing animals do out of a slew of morally deplorable acts for a human?

And research is exactly what I would encourage you to do. Teach yourself about the studies that link homosexuality to other mental illness, to being a mental illness in and of itself, and how psychiatrists were threatened into changing it from being classified as a mental illness without any scientific reason to do so. Teach yourself about the much higher rate of domestic abuse, drug use, infidelity, and std's among the homosexual population.

The truth is out there my friend. You have but to stop rejecting it.
User avatar
#34 - doctorcamden (08/27/2016) [-]
Its tough to meet a man thats "my type" when girls with black hair blue eyes and wide hips get me harder than steel. Like my girlfriend gor example.

Saying gay is a state of mind implies there is something wrong with it, which is not at all the case as, like I said, we can observe the actions of almost any species and see gay behavior.

To say gay is built in does not de-humanize gays, its quite the opposite. Humans are animals, we act in instinct ad often as we don't.
Attraction is formed through visual ques and pheromones, neither of which we can alter in ourselves.

Homosexuals are often linked to depression and anxiety. Correct. This, however, is almost always linked to social stigmas, gay was (and in some places, still is) treated like an abnormality. Leading to stress and fear for rejection, especially from parents and close loved ones. This is a human reaction, as we are self aware, we are an animal that relies on being social and "fitting in".

As for your closing statement, I am only further convinced you are baiting for replies based off the fact you simply spat my words back at me with venom, rather than bringing anything new to the debate. As such, this will be my final reply.

Have a good day, best of luck in future baiting.
User avatar
#35 - Vandeekree (08/27/2016) [-]
No, it being a state of mind doesn't, by itself, imply there's something wrong with it. What it does imply is that it's a choice. And a choice can be judged as right or wrong.

So is the choice to be gay right or wrong? Well going by your evidence that animals do it so it must be right, then murder must also be alright sense animals do it. Rape must also be fine because animals engage in it all the time.

And we can certainly alter our own reactions the what we perceive around us. TO say otherwise is to subscribe to a deterministic view but if you agree with that view then there is nothing wrong with anything, and that includes murder, rape, and saying that gay people are wrong.(Sense you seem to think that is a bad thing to do)

And even if those mental conditions are linked to how gays are treated in society, then it doesn't change the argument. It still shows it is a negative thing to be gay. You just said humans are only instinct driven animals, and so, if the majority of society is hating on gays, then disliking and hating gays must be the natural thing.

The problem with what you are trying to defend is that it's a subjective system of morality. There is nothing behind it. It is based on feelings and thus can change into anything being right or wrong. This is the only moral path that would allow someone to defend an act that has no other reason to happen than "Because homosexuals want to do it"

Compare this to absolute systems of morality and you will realize it's not an argument at all.
User avatar
#36 - doctorcamden (08/27/2016) [-]
You just falously mixed my answer with your own logic. Just because animals do something doesn't make it a good choice morally, yes. But that is only comparible to homosexual behavior if one believes homosexuality to be a choice, which it is not. It also polarizes all actions animals take into right and wrong, neither of which exist in the animal kingdom. Morality, empathy law are all human concepts.

My use of gay behaviour in animals was to illustrate that it appears naturally in nature. At that point in my arguement, "right and wrong" were not factors. You could claim your bait successful, as you have managed to use a quote out of context to further push an agruement that science does not support, which has raised my ire.

I will again present the fact that humans are animals, we are driven by instinct as often as we are not. Attraction is nature.

It is also worth mentioning humans and dolphins are the only two species known to partake in sexual intercourse for purposes of pleasure only. By your logic, an animal has sex purely for pleasure, so we shouldn't? Or maybe actions dont fit into a moral 'Black and White' standard.
User avatar
#37 - Vandeekree (08/27/2016) [-]
Exactly. So when human does homosexuality, it's a choice. Because, like murder, a human can understand what they are doing and choose it. Humans are more complex than animals. Complex enough to choose every action we take. Including homosexuality. Do you see why your argument doesn't work now?

But this is no bait. It's simply that you don't seem to grasp your own argument. Likely because it is repeated from some other place rather than understood.

And I agree it appears naturally in nature. Naturally for those animals. But not for humans. Just as it would be unnatural for a human to try and breath water despite it being natural for a fish.

But no, attraction is not nature. The desire for sex is nature, but what you direct that towards is wholly nurture. That's why you see people who will direct their lust towards inanimate objects, towards ideas, towards animals, children, and just about anything one can imagine. But it's not always ok to let yourself feel such lusts and fully within a person to reject or control such lusts.

And your last argument is a fallacy as well. Because if you want to say that actions don't fall into a moral standard then nothing is wrong or right. Including saying that gay people are doing wrong.
User avatar
#38 - doctorcamden (08/27/2016) [-]
The vandeekree method:

See arguement.
Ignore it.
Misquote it.
Act smug.

I've never met a man so devoted to his bait. This is beyond itumblr.
User avatar
#39 - Vandeekree (08/27/2016) [-]
Well try to explain to me what exactly your argument is.

Believe it or not, I am quite sure I completely understand your argument as you keep contradicting yourself when you talk about how humans are animals except that they aren't.

I have been over this same argument many many times and believe myself to very thoroughly understand it.

So please, in the simplest and easiest to understand why you can, try to explain your exact argument.
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#40 - doctorcamden (08/27/2016) [-]
I have though. There are no contradictions. The information is there. Read it.
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#41 - Vandeekree (08/27/2016) [-]
I'm afraid I'm seeing the same thing. That you want to say animals should dictate our morals but not the ones you don't think should dictate our morals. And that humans are animals except that we are smart enough to have morals but those morals are dictated by animistic instinct and are thus not really morals but we also aren't autonomous robots of flesh that don't choose anything the way animals do. It makes no sense.
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#42 - doctorcamden (08/27/2016) [-]
I never said animals should dictate our morals. Thats retarded (and similar to what you said).

Morals are a human concept. I brought that up when you claimed the things animals do are un-civilized and below us. You seem to be mistaken as to who said what. Thats okay, you're allowed to be slow.

The actions of animals dont fit into "black and white" and "right and wrong" when placed against a human scale of morality. Animals kill to survive. Rape to assert dominance etc. Humans, are animals, we have instinct much like our lesser evolved brethren, but we are self aware. Hence, evolved.

Still yet to contradict myself, lets continue shall we?

A Homosexuality equivilant appears in most species we observe. We also know that only dolphins have sex purely for pleasure outside of humanity. Meaning there are reasons for gay sex other than pleasure or perversion.

Following? Probably not knowing you.

Humans are more evolved, but that does not mean we are different to animals, we are still animals, we will aleays be animals. Gay sex is used in the animal kingdom for many many different reasons, but in apes, it is linked to dominance and strength.

Homosexuals usually aspire to be one of two things, dominante or submissive, which is a tie to our predecessors. Its where the Alpha, Beta mentality comes from.

Humans may, at some point, evolve to the point that we dont have homosexuality, but we arent there yet.

Now to my origional point, the cause of this waste of my time. You brought to the comments an outdated mentality dating back thousands of years, that we should deny the rights of certain individuals based off something that they cannot change, attraction. You would deny them the freedom of acting on their natural urges. Tell them that they are wrong to do so, which is the same environment that leads to suicide in 'closet' homosexuals, fear and anxiety is caused by your mentality, its ignorant and disgusting. And a blatant disregard to human rights and freedoms.

Its also the islamic mindset on homosexuality.
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#43 - Vandeekree (08/27/2016) [-]
And I understand all of that. But what you just explained, with the evolution and the alpha/beta, it was an explanation where homosexuality might have come from, but not an argument if it is moral or amoral.

So again, I ask why animals having gay sex dictates it being ok for humans?

This is why it's confusing. Even your last statement isn't an argument. You say that homosexuality is inherent and not a choice but then give no reason why. That's the argument we are having. And sure if you take for granted that point then the other stuff you say might be relevant. But you have to show that it is indeed true that homosexuality isn't a choice despite all other aspects of human emotion being a choice.

And yes. This is the Islamic feeling too. Islamist's also love their mothers so clearly loving one's mother is a bad thing. Don't try to use modern news channel tricks here please.

So this is where my confusion comes from. You keep saying things that don't matter to the argument. Or at least you say them without explaining how they tie in. Lets assume you're right and the alpha/beta thing is the reason homosexuality evolved. Does that make it right that it's a thing apes do so humans can? Apes also murder. Why is murder not ok then?
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#44 - doctorcamden (08/27/2016) [-]
I literally just explained why morals and the actions of animals arent comparable. You cant throw any action into a right or wrong scenario. Morals are a human construction based on social stigma over many millenia. They are part of what seperates us from the lesser animals, ie, a product of our self awareness.

You bring up emotion, emotions are chemical reactions in the brain. Irrelevant. Dont waste my time further.

My statement on islam was to parody your logic. You cant be that stupid im sure, so im going to take your reply as satirical.

Gay is a deep-seeded part of human psychology, its theorized there are traces of it in all humans. To treat a homosexual as sick or wrong and deny them the freedoms of others is a violation of human rights, its comparable to treating people different based off skin color.

Abusing these humans into being (acting) straight wont remove gay from our species, as its existence will fade out naturally with time, and back in if required. Thats how evolution works. There are no clear cut steps, just a blend of mutations and extinctions.

So. Are you going to waste my time further? Needless to say you are either too stubborn or too stupid to get this. At the end of the day you and I dont really fucking matter, your mindset is almost extinct. And thats good enough for me.
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#45 - Vandeekree (08/27/2016) [-]
Ok, that helps get to the heart of the matter. So you are taking the "there are no real morals" stance. But that stance dictates that you have no moral ground either. Especially no moral ground to tell me not to discriminate against gays. Do you see the contradiction there?

And what emotions did I bring up exactly?

So if it's abuse to punish a gay person for being gay. Is it abuse to punish a murderer for murdering?

But do you see that this argument too does not touch upon if it is moral or not to do gay things? Even if it were deep seeded and even if you don't like being punished for it. You are not speaking about where morals come from or how being gay could be right or wrong. You're avoiding the entire issue and instead hoping that saying punishing a gay person is abuse but punishing a rapist isn't and that an animal doing gay things means a person can but an animal murdering doesn't mean a human should.

Do you really not see your contradictions at all?
#209 - The bible does talk about those subjects, but in the same way … 08/19/2016 on religion of piece +6