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Nekatroz

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latest user's comments

#120 - Your currency is unstable because is not properly "fiat&q…  [+] (2 replies) 09/28/2016 on Deutsche bank is falling... 0
#123 - thermobil (09/28/2016) [-]
We don´t have oil standard, oil is priced in dollars, that is true, and the whole might of dollar is caused by the fact that it had to be used as a reserve currency by all banks. That era is almost gone as some Middle-Eastern countries wanted to sell oil in gold and some countries (Russia, China) now use each other´s currency to be used as reserve. There is one simple fact - our fiat currencies are not the first ones tried, in history there were hundreds if not thousands of them, and they all failed and went to zero.

Yes, after Greco-Persian Wars Greece was flooded with loot and they used it to fund great social works (temples, infrastructure and so on), but after those wars there were 2 Peloponesian Wars with Sparta, and then they started to devalue their money with copper, because they didn´t stop with great social works to fund the war. The war was costly, bc most of the battles were waged closer to Sparta.

The original Denarius went from 95-98% pure silver to 5% silver. When there is only 5% silver in your Denarius, then it´s easier to forge, of course, because 95% of the coin is made of cheaper metals. BUT - silver in itself has a value, and when there is less silver in your coin it should be less valuable, the problem arises when you try to sell the new Denarius as the old one. Even barbarian mercenaries refused to be paid in Denarius and demanded payment in gold.

All this boils down to this - the state allows the central bank to print money for the State´s deficit spending, it writes a bond and sells it, promising to pay the bond back with some interest, which will have to come from the pockets of future generations (which limits the productivity in the future to increase productivity in the present). As far as private banks go (Federal reserve is also a private bank) the State allows them to do fractional reserve lending, where they keep only a fraction (in most cases I heard of 10%) of your investment and lends out the rest. When you want all of your money back, they have to "print" the 90%, because they simply do not have it, and voila, currency springs into existence. Inflation ensues. The US hides it´s inflation in trade deficits and abroad, exporting dollars and importing trade goods.

Yeah, it would damn well weaken the dollar, because during quantitative easings billions of dollars were printed. Additionally, you can find criminals everywhere, nowadays they are concentrated in the government.

Fiat currency could work, theoretically, if you kept the amount of it stable. Dollar lost 95% of it´s value (or purchasing power) over time, that is´t stable at all.
User avatar
#121 - Nekatroz (09/28/2016) [-]
*devaluation not only happened by the hand of the State, but also by the act of "denting", or scraping off the precious metal of the coins, done by the public.
#92 - The problem with gold coins and silver coins is that they tend…  [+] (4 replies) 09/27/2016 on Deutsche bank is falling... 0
#104 - thermobil (09/27/2016) [-]
No offence, but that is bullsh*t. The old gold coins/weights have value even now, it´s not stable value compared to fiat currency, but that is because our currency is unstable.

Do you know what ancient Greeks did to devalue their coins? They took 100% gold coins and mixed copper in and guess what, copper doesn´t have the same value as gold. This created the possibility of deficit spending (for example they took 1000 gold coins, mixed in 50% copper and now magically they had 2000 coins, which they could spend at original value) on great social works and wars. They did it so much that the original gold coins became so rare that people hoarded them (see Gresham´s law). The same happened with silver Denarius (Roman coin).

In modern information age, you could for example transfer ownership of the gold in fractions of grams (like paying with credit card), additionally, destroying or damaging gold/silver coins isn´t easier, and when you have the coins, you will guard them, after you paid with it it ceases to be your problem.

When you have a limited supply money (critical here is "limited supply", which in and of itself creates the value of the material) then a runaway inflation is not possible (because you can´t simply create more gold/silver from thin air, unlike the dollars that are running from printing presses in their billions and even trillions). The second problem is also solved by the limited supply - if you have an economic growth and the same amount of money, you money raises in value, which makes everything cheaper (this is called deflation, and in working economy you should experience slow and gradual deflation, because we are more and more efficient in producing).

Gold is gold and silver is silver, the only differences in the value of different coins would be their purity and weigth (which would be guaranteeded by the mint itself). In the world today practically every country has it´s own currency and exchange ratios are established. I think that it would not be that difficult to work out exchange ratios between different coins, or it would be even easier (for example you have 0,9999 1oz American Gold Eagle and 0,9999 1oz "Amazonian Great Snake" and it would be worth the exact same value. Or you could just transfer ownership of gold through non-cash transfer.
User avatar
#120 - Nekatroz (09/28/2016) [-]
Your currency is unstable because is not properly "fiat", but what can be called "oil standard"; given that is not as scarce as gold or silver, it tends to shift easily.

About the Greeks, your forgot the eventual victory they achieved against the Persian empire, with flooded them with loot, a lot of gold (while not being the same situation that happened with Dyonisius "half a drachma is one" of Syracuse) which skyrocketed the amount of gold in currency.

About the Romans, limiting the amount of gold and silver in coins wasnt the only problem, you must take in account how this cheap coins were forged by counterfeit, given the low cost of metals involved.

Im aware of what deflation does. What Im taking in account is population size, level of consumption and needed money in circulation. Which takes me to the next thing, blaming the central bank for the millions being printed is to obscure the role of private banking in such situation of "producing out of thin air". While is true, the State allowed them to do that, it didnt help that the demand for printed money by the State was suddenly joined by private banking demands of money, thus, pushing US goverment to search after a commodity not as scarce as gold to keep up the flow of printed currency (besides the inherent problems of the gold standard). If the problem was how to control the amount of printed money, while is the fault of US state, i would blame more shitty legislation rather than any inherent issue related to the state itself.

Gresham Law while applied certainly in the case of Greeks and Romans, devaluation not only happened by the hand of the State, by the act of "denting", or scraping off the precious metal of the coins. Not to talk about what could happen if you take away "oil standard" in dollar and replace it with gold, you could have a reverse Gresham law given that it would weaken the dollar (at least, under sudden change and present conditions).

And yes, i forgot to mention that paper money was accepted, also, out of easier transportation, which you took in account by pointing out how under information age, that would be easier to do. But Im more confident in bitcoin schemes and the like, albeit, im needed of more reading about it.
#123 - thermobil (09/28/2016) [-]
We don´t have oil standard, oil is priced in dollars, that is true, and the whole might of dollar is caused by the fact that it had to be used as a reserve currency by all banks. That era is almost gone as some Middle-Eastern countries wanted to sell oil in gold and some countries (Russia, China) now use each other´s currency to be used as reserve. There is one simple fact - our fiat currencies are not the first ones tried, in history there were hundreds if not thousands of them, and they all failed and went to zero.

Yes, after Greco-Persian Wars Greece was flooded with loot and they used it to fund great social works (temples, infrastructure and so on), but after those wars there were 2 Peloponesian Wars with Sparta, and then they started to devalue their money with copper, because they didn´t stop with great social works to fund the war. The war was costly, bc most of the battles were waged closer to Sparta.

The original Denarius went from 95-98% pure silver to 5% silver. When there is only 5% silver in your Denarius, then it´s easier to forge, of course, because 95% of the coin is made of cheaper metals. BUT - silver in itself has a value, and when there is less silver in your coin it should be less valuable, the problem arises when you try to sell the new Denarius as the old one. Even barbarian mercenaries refused to be paid in Denarius and demanded payment in gold.

All this boils down to this - the state allows the central bank to print money for the State´s deficit spending, it writes a bond and sells it, promising to pay the bond back with some interest, which will have to come from the pockets of future generations (which limits the productivity in the future to increase productivity in the present). As far as private banks go (Federal reserve is also a private bank) the State allows them to do fractional reserve lending, where they keep only a fraction (in most cases I heard of 10%) of your investment and lends out the rest. When you want all of your money back, they have to "print" the 90%, because they simply do not have it, and voila, currency springs into existence. Inflation ensues. The US hides it´s inflation in trade deficits and abroad, exporting dollars and importing trade goods.

Yeah, it would damn well weaken the dollar, because during quantitative easings billions of dollars were printed. Additionally, you can find criminals everywhere, nowadays they are concentrated in the government.

Fiat currency could work, theoretically, if you kept the amount of it stable. Dollar lost 95% of it´s value (or purchasing power) over time, that is´t stable at all.
User avatar
#121 - Nekatroz (09/28/2016) [-]
*devaluation not only happened by the hand of the State, but also by the act of "denting", or scraping off the precious metal of the coins, done by the public.
#83 - Dude Central banks appeared because the ******** prod…  [+] (8 replies) 09/27/2016 on Deutsche bank is falling... +1
#87 - thermobil (09/27/2016) [-]
Gold standard is bullsh*t, on that I agree, but only because it let certain people to scam general population.
In the past you had gold and silver coins and with them you actually paid. Then governments created paper currency as a receipt check for the money - when you went into a bank and slapped on the counter 20 dollar bill, they had to give you gold with value of 20 dollars. Then after the during WW1 government suspended the payment of gold and printed bunch of currency to pay for the war and magically the reserve ratio wasn´t 1:1 but 2:5 (for every 50 dollars the banks had only 20 dollars of gold).
After WW2 the ratio was established at 35 dollars per ounce and the era of "dollar standard" began (european currencies were no longer tied to gold, instead they were tied to dollar, which was tied to gold). Wars in Korea and Vietnam, USA does a lot of deficit spending (printing more dollars) and the world began to notice that US "probably" does not have enough gold to pay all the dollars printed, so in 1971 Nixon took US off the gold standard, and NOW the real shitstorm ensues and to this day continues (because now the government, through private central bank - Federal Reserve, can now print basically any amount of currency, basically enslaving the unborn - because they will have to pay taxes in the future for the prosperity we enjoy today).
Central banks are just big fat state sponsored monopolies, which enable the government to fool it´s people. If people really had to pay what the government spends (meaning that the government had balanced budget with no debt), they would make sure there would be no interventionist wars in Libya or Syria, maybe not even Iraq.
User avatar
#92 - Nekatroz (09/27/2016) [-]
The problem with gold coins and silver coins is that they tended to loose value by the very fact they got old.

Take Greece as an example, they had to invent a determined regulation on coins because they use to have a value on what the weighted, so you generated a standard in such coins since they all had the same amount of gold in them. But, given the use, they got less and less gold in them, and, suddenly, you had to use "two coins" to represent the values of "one coin".

Besides being a receipt, paper money was created in order to reduce costs of production and avoid the degradation of currency through natural means. Yes, bill are made of paper and linen and can be easily destroyed, but its replication costs are way too low compared to making more coins.

While central banks are, certainly, a monopoly, its existence is more convinient than evil; any lack of control on monetary reserves will drove you either into full inflation or make your money scarce enough to not keep up with actual circulation.

While alternative currencies are fine, the virtual elimination of any central bank and the pluralization of currencies will make the economy explode out of the possibility of anyone making their own currency. Not to talk about how business are going to keep up with hundreds, if not thousands of new "coins" appearing.
#104 - thermobil (09/27/2016) [-]
No offence, but that is bullsh*t. The old gold coins/weights have value even now, it´s not stable value compared to fiat currency, but that is because our currency is unstable.

Do you know what ancient Greeks did to devalue their coins? They took 100% gold coins and mixed copper in and guess what, copper doesn´t have the same value as gold. This created the possibility of deficit spending (for example they took 1000 gold coins, mixed in 50% copper and now magically they had 2000 coins, which they could spend at original value) on great social works and wars. They did it so much that the original gold coins became so rare that people hoarded them (see Gresham´s law). The same happened with silver Denarius (Roman coin).

In modern information age, you could for example transfer ownership of the gold in fractions of grams (like paying with credit card), additionally, destroying or damaging gold/silver coins isn´t easier, and when you have the coins, you will guard them, after you paid with it it ceases to be your problem.

When you have a limited supply money (critical here is "limited supply", which in and of itself creates the value of the material) then a runaway inflation is not possible (because you can´t simply create more gold/silver from thin air, unlike the dollars that are running from printing presses in their billions and even trillions). The second problem is also solved by the limited supply - if you have an economic growth and the same amount of money, you money raises in value, which makes everything cheaper (this is called deflation, and in working economy you should experience slow and gradual deflation, because we are more and more efficient in producing).

Gold is gold and silver is silver, the only differences in the value of different coins would be their purity and weigth (which would be guaranteeded by the mint itself). In the world today practically every country has it´s own currency and exchange ratios are established. I think that it would not be that difficult to work out exchange ratios between different coins, or it would be even easier (for example you have 0,9999 1oz American Gold Eagle and 0,9999 1oz "Amazonian Great Snake" and it would be worth the exact same value. Or you could just transfer ownership of gold through non-cash transfer.
User avatar
#120 - Nekatroz (09/28/2016) [-]
Your currency is unstable because is not properly "fiat", but what can be called "oil standard"; given that is not as scarce as gold or silver, it tends to shift easily.

About the Greeks, your forgot the eventual victory they achieved against the Persian empire, with flooded them with loot, a lot of gold (while not being the same situation that happened with Dyonisius "half a drachma is one" of Syracuse) which skyrocketed the amount of gold in currency.

About the Romans, limiting the amount of gold and silver in coins wasnt the only problem, you must take in account how this cheap coins were forged by counterfeit, given the low cost of metals involved.

Im aware of what deflation does. What Im taking in account is population size, level of consumption and needed money in circulation. Which takes me to the next thing, blaming the central bank for the millions being printed is to obscure the role of private banking in such situation of "producing out of thin air". While is true, the State allowed them to do that, it didnt help that the demand for printed money by the State was suddenly joined by private banking demands of money, thus, pushing US goverment to search after a commodity not as scarce as gold to keep up the flow of printed currency (besides the inherent problems of the gold standard). If the problem was how to control the amount of printed money, while is the fault of US state, i would blame more shitty legislation rather than any inherent issue related to the state itself.

Gresham Law while applied certainly in the case of Greeks and Romans, devaluation not only happened by the hand of the State, by the act of "denting", or scraping off the precious metal of the coins. Not to talk about what could happen if you take away "oil standard" in dollar and replace it with gold, you could have a reverse Gresham law given that it would weaken the dollar (at least, under sudden change and present conditions).

And yes, i forgot to mention that paper money was accepted, also, out of easier transportation, which you took in account by pointing out how under information age, that would be easier to do. But Im more confident in bitcoin schemes and the like, albeit, im needed of more reading about it.
#123 - thermobil (09/28/2016) [-]
We don´t have oil standard, oil is priced in dollars, that is true, and the whole might of dollar is caused by the fact that it had to be used as a reserve currency by all banks. That era is almost gone as some Middle-Eastern countries wanted to sell oil in gold and some countries (Russia, China) now use each other´s currency to be used as reserve. There is one simple fact - our fiat currencies are not the first ones tried, in history there were hundreds if not thousands of them, and they all failed and went to zero.

Yes, after Greco-Persian Wars Greece was flooded with loot and they used it to fund great social works (temples, infrastructure and so on), but after those wars there were 2 Peloponesian Wars with Sparta, and then they started to devalue their money with copper, because they didn´t stop with great social works to fund the war. The war was costly, bc most of the battles were waged closer to Sparta.

The original Denarius went from 95-98% pure silver to 5% silver. When there is only 5% silver in your Denarius, then it´s easier to forge, of course, because 95% of the coin is made of cheaper metals. BUT - silver in itself has a value, and when there is less silver in your coin it should be less valuable, the problem arises when you try to sell the new Denarius as the old one. Even barbarian mercenaries refused to be paid in Denarius and demanded payment in gold.

All this boils down to this - the state allows the central bank to print money for the State´s deficit spending, it writes a bond and sells it, promising to pay the bond back with some interest, which will have to come from the pockets of future generations (which limits the productivity in the future to increase productivity in the present). As far as private banks go (Federal reserve is also a private bank) the State allows them to do fractional reserve lending, where they keep only a fraction (in most cases I heard of 10%) of your investment and lends out the rest. When you want all of your money back, they have to "print" the 90%, because they simply do not have it, and voila, currency springs into existence. Inflation ensues. The US hides it´s inflation in trade deficits and abroad, exporting dollars and importing trade goods.

Yeah, it would damn well weaken the dollar, because during quantitative easings billions of dollars were printed. Additionally, you can find criminals everywhere, nowadays they are concentrated in the government.

Fiat currency could work, theoretically, if you kept the amount of it stable. Dollar lost 95% of it´s value (or purchasing power) over time, that is´t stable at all.
User avatar
#121 - Nekatroz (09/28/2016) [-]
*devaluation not only happened by the hand of the State, but also by the act of "denting", or scraping off the precious metal of the coins, done by the public.
#88 - balanced (09/27/2016) [-]
How dare you summon me in politicsjunk.
#89 - thermobil (09/27/2016) [-]
Well, we also need your partner in crime, Budget. Where did you leave him? Or does he hang with the bad guys? I just knew that Debt, Unfunded and Liabilities were bad news.
#56 - That's pretty much how it has been working since the 18th cent…  [+] (10 replies) 09/27/2016 on Deutsche bank is falling... 0
#64 - thermobil (09/27/2016) [-]
Big central banks is the product of early 20th century. Also in the past we had real money (gold, silver) and not this paper currency crap.
User avatar
#83 - Nekatroz (09/27/2016) [-]
Dude

Central banks appeared because the fuckfest produced by the gold standard

Not that it didnt work like real money, but it generated an obsession between nations to not let their currency to devaluated, thus, creating huge regulations in order to make expensive to buy from overseas and avoid having a lot of "currency" accumulated.

Now, reproduce that in a global scale and you have certainly an economic meltdown.
#87 - thermobil (09/27/2016) [-]
Gold standard is bullsh*t, on that I agree, but only because it let certain people to scam general population.
In the past you had gold and silver coins and with them you actually paid. Then governments created paper currency as a receipt check for the money - when you went into a bank and slapped on the counter 20 dollar bill, they had to give you gold with value of 20 dollars. Then after the during WW1 government suspended the payment of gold and printed bunch of currency to pay for the war and magically the reserve ratio wasn´t 1:1 but 2:5 (for every 50 dollars the banks had only 20 dollars of gold).
After WW2 the ratio was established at 35 dollars per ounce and the era of "dollar standard" began (european currencies were no longer tied to gold, instead they were tied to dollar, which was tied to gold). Wars in Korea and Vietnam, USA does a lot of deficit spending (printing more dollars) and the world began to notice that US "probably" does not have enough gold to pay all the dollars printed, so in 1971 Nixon took US off the gold standard, and NOW the real shitstorm ensues and to this day continues (because now the government, through private central bank - Federal Reserve, can now print basically any amount of currency, basically enslaving the unborn - because they will have to pay taxes in the future for the prosperity we enjoy today).
Central banks are just big fat state sponsored monopolies, which enable the government to fool it´s people. If people really had to pay what the government spends (meaning that the government had balanced budget with no debt), they would make sure there would be no interventionist wars in Libya or Syria, maybe not even Iraq.
User avatar
#92 - Nekatroz (09/27/2016) [-]
The problem with gold coins and silver coins is that they tended to loose value by the very fact they got old.

Take Greece as an example, they had to invent a determined regulation on coins because they use to have a value on what the weighted, so you generated a standard in such coins since they all had the same amount of gold in them. But, given the use, they got less and less gold in them, and, suddenly, you had to use "two coins" to represent the values of "one coin".

Besides being a receipt, paper money was created in order to reduce costs of production and avoid the degradation of currency through natural means. Yes, bill are made of paper and linen and can be easily destroyed, but its replication costs are way too low compared to making more coins.

While central banks are, certainly, a monopoly, its existence is more convinient than evil; any lack of control on monetary reserves will drove you either into full inflation or make your money scarce enough to not keep up with actual circulation.

While alternative currencies are fine, the virtual elimination of any central bank and the pluralization of currencies will make the economy explode out of the possibility of anyone making their own currency. Not to talk about how business are going to keep up with hundreds, if not thousands of new "coins" appearing.
#104 - thermobil (09/27/2016) [-]
No offence, but that is bullsh*t. The old gold coins/weights have value even now, it´s not stable value compared to fiat currency, but that is because our currency is unstable.

Do you know what ancient Greeks did to devalue their coins? They took 100% gold coins and mixed copper in and guess what, copper doesn´t have the same value as gold. This created the possibility of deficit spending (for example they took 1000 gold coins, mixed in 50% copper and now magically they had 2000 coins, which they could spend at original value) on great social works and wars. They did it so much that the original gold coins became so rare that people hoarded them (see Gresham´s law). The same happened with silver Denarius (Roman coin).

In modern information age, you could for example transfer ownership of the gold in fractions of grams (like paying with credit card), additionally, destroying or damaging gold/silver coins isn´t easier, and when you have the coins, you will guard them, after you paid with it it ceases to be your problem.

When you have a limited supply money (critical here is "limited supply", which in and of itself creates the value of the material) then a runaway inflation is not possible (because you can´t simply create more gold/silver from thin air, unlike the dollars that are running from printing presses in their billions and even trillions). The second problem is also solved by the limited supply - if you have an economic growth and the same amount of money, you money raises in value, which makes everything cheaper (this is called deflation, and in working economy you should experience slow and gradual deflation, because we are more and more efficient in producing).

Gold is gold and silver is silver, the only differences in the value of different coins would be their purity and weigth (which would be guaranteeded by the mint itself). In the world today practically every country has it´s own currency and exchange ratios are established. I think that it would not be that difficult to work out exchange ratios between different coins, or it would be even easier (for example you have 0,9999 1oz American Gold Eagle and 0,9999 1oz "Amazonian Great Snake" and it would be worth the exact same value. Or you could just transfer ownership of gold through non-cash transfer.
User avatar
#120 - Nekatroz (09/28/2016) [-]
Your currency is unstable because is not properly "fiat", but what can be called "oil standard"; given that is not as scarce as gold or silver, it tends to shift easily.

About the Greeks, your forgot the eventual victory they achieved against the Persian empire, with flooded them with loot, a lot of gold (while not being the same situation that happened with Dyonisius "half a drachma is one" of Syracuse) which skyrocketed the amount of gold in currency.

About the Romans, limiting the amount of gold and silver in coins wasnt the only problem, you must take in account how this cheap coins were forged by counterfeit, given the low cost of metals involved.

Im aware of what deflation does. What Im taking in account is population size, level of consumption and needed money in circulation. Which takes me to the next thing, blaming the central bank for the millions being printed is to obscure the role of private banking in such situation of "producing out of thin air". While is true, the State allowed them to do that, it didnt help that the demand for printed money by the State was suddenly joined by private banking demands of money, thus, pushing US goverment to search after a commodity not as scarce as gold to keep up the flow of printed currency (besides the inherent problems of the gold standard). If the problem was how to control the amount of printed money, while is the fault of US state, i would blame more shitty legislation rather than any inherent issue related to the state itself.

Gresham Law while applied certainly in the case of Greeks and Romans, devaluation not only happened by the hand of the State, by the act of "denting", or scraping off the precious metal of the coins. Not to talk about what could happen if you take away "oil standard" in dollar and replace it with gold, you could have a reverse Gresham law given that it would weaken the dollar (at least, under sudden change and present conditions).

And yes, i forgot to mention that paper money was accepted, also, out of easier transportation, which you took in account by pointing out how under information age, that would be easier to do. But Im more confident in bitcoin schemes and the like, albeit, im needed of more reading about it.
#123 - thermobil (09/28/2016) [-]
We don´t have oil standard, oil is priced in dollars, that is true, and the whole might of dollar is caused by the fact that it had to be used as a reserve currency by all banks. That era is almost gone as some Middle-Eastern countries wanted to sell oil in gold and some countries (Russia, China) now use each other´s currency to be used as reserve. There is one simple fact - our fiat currencies are not the first ones tried, in history there were hundreds if not thousands of them, and they all failed and went to zero.

Yes, after Greco-Persian Wars Greece was flooded with loot and they used it to fund great social works (temples, infrastructure and so on), but after those wars there were 2 Peloponesian Wars with Sparta, and then they started to devalue their money with copper, because they didn´t stop with great social works to fund the war. The war was costly, bc most of the battles were waged closer to Sparta.

The original Denarius went from 95-98% pure silver to 5% silver. When there is only 5% silver in your Denarius, then it´s easier to forge, of course, because 95% of the coin is made of cheaper metals. BUT - silver in itself has a value, and when there is less silver in your coin it should be less valuable, the problem arises when you try to sell the new Denarius as the old one. Even barbarian mercenaries refused to be paid in Denarius and demanded payment in gold.

All this boils down to this - the state allows the central bank to print money for the State´s deficit spending, it writes a bond and sells it, promising to pay the bond back with some interest, which will have to come from the pockets of future generations (which limits the productivity in the future to increase productivity in the present). As far as private banks go (Federal reserve is also a private bank) the State allows them to do fractional reserve lending, where they keep only a fraction (in most cases I heard of 10%) of your investment and lends out the rest. When you want all of your money back, they have to "print" the 90%, because they simply do not have it, and voila, currency springs into existence. Inflation ensues. The US hides it´s inflation in trade deficits and abroad, exporting dollars and importing trade goods.

Yeah, it would damn well weaken the dollar, because during quantitative easings billions of dollars were printed. Additionally, you can find criminals everywhere, nowadays they are concentrated in the government.

Fiat currency could work, theoretically, if you kept the amount of it stable. Dollar lost 95% of it´s value (or purchasing power) over time, that is´t stable at all.
User avatar
#121 - Nekatroz (09/28/2016) [-]
*devaluation not only happened by the hand of the State, but also by the act of "denting", or scraping off the precious metal of the coins, done by the public.
#88 - balanced (09/27/2016) [-]
How dare you summon me in politicsjunk.
#89 - thermobil (09/27/2016) [-]
Well, we also need your partner in crime, Budget. Where did you leave him? Or does he hang with the bad guys? I just knew that Debt, Unfunded and Liabilities were bad news.
#6 - I wonder how hellish will Europe look like, but neverless, I e…  [+] (14 replies) 09/26/2016 on Deutsche bank is falling... -4
#29 - anon (09/27/2016) [-]
Well globalism is kinda shit, so yeah.
User avatar
#55 - Nekatroz (09/27/2016) [-]
do you mean

the natural behaviour of capitalism
#13 - kewolsky (09/26/2016) [-]
Giant banks and venture capitalism isn't representatieve of working an honest wage, using that honest wage to pay for your basic needs and using the remainder to buy yourself some nice shit.
User avatar
#56 - Nekatroz (09/27/2016) [-]
That's pretty much how it has been working since the 18th century, m8.

#64 - thermobil (09/27/2016) [-]
Big central banks is the product of early 20th century. Also in the past we had real money (gold, silver) and not this paper currency crap.
User avatar
#83 - Nekatroz (09/27/2016) [-]
Dude

Central banks appeared because the fuckfest produced by the gold standard

Not that it didnt work like real money, but it generated an obsession between nations to not let their currency to devaluated, thus, creating huge regulations in order to make expensive to buy from overseas and avoid having a lot of "currency" accumulated.

Now, reproduce that in a global scale and you have certainly an economic meltdown.
#87 - thermobil (09/27/2016) [-]
Gold standard is bullsh*t, on that I agree, but only because it let certain people to scam general population.
In the past you had gold and silver coins and with them you actually paid. Then governments created paper currency as a receipt check for the money - when you went into a bank and slapped on the counter 20 dollar bill, they had to give you gold with value of 20 dollars. Then after the during WW1 government suspended the payment of gold and printed bunch of currency to pay for the war and magically the reserve ratio wasn´t 1:1 but 2:5 (for every 50 dollars the banks had only 20 dollars of gold).
After WW2 the ratio was established at 35 dollars per ounce and the era of "dollar standard" began (european currencies were no longer tied to gold, instead they were tied to dollar, which was tied to gold). Wars in Korea and Vietnam, USA does a lot of deficit spending (printing more dollars) and the world began to notice that US "probably" does not have enough gold to pay all the dollars printed, so in 1971 Nixon took US off the gold standard, and NOW the real shitstorm ensues and to this day continues (because now the government, through private central bank - Federal Reserve, can now print basically any amount of currency, basically enslaving the unborn - because they will have to pay taxes in the future for the prosperity we enjoy today).
Central banks are just big fat state sponsored monopolies, which enable the government to fool it´s people. If people really had to pay what the government spends (meaning that the government had balanced budget with no debt), they would make sure there would be no interventionist wars in Libya or Syria, maybe not even Iraq.
User avatar
#92 - Nekatroz (09/27/2016) [-]
The problem with gold coins and silver coins is that they tended to loose value by the very fact they got old.

Take Greece as an example, they had to invent a determined regulation on coins because they use to have a value on what the weighted, so you generated a standard in such coins since they all had the same amount of gold in them. But, given the use, they got less and less gold in them, and, suddenly, you had to use "two coins" to represent the values of "one coin".

Besides being a receipt, paper money was created in order to reduce costs of production and avoid the degradation of currency through natural means. Yes, bill are made of paper and linen and can be easily destroyed, but its replication costs are way too low compared to making more coins.

While central banks are, certainly, a monopoly, its existence is more convinient than evil; any lack of control on monetary reserves will drove you either into full inflation or make your money scarce enough to not keep up with actual circulation.

While alternative currencies are fine, the virtual elimination of any central bank and the pluralization of currencies will make the economy explode out of the possibility of anyone making their own currency. Not to talk about how business are going to keep up with hundreds, if not thousands of new "coins" appearing.
#104 - thermobil (09/27/2016) [-]
No offence, but that is bullsh*t. The old gold coins/weights have value even now, it´s not stable value compared to fiat currency, but that is because our currency is unstable.

Do you know what ancient Greeks did to devalue their coins? They took 100% gold coins and mixed copper in and guess what, copper doesn´t have the same value as gold. This created the possibility of deficit spending (for example they took 1000 gold coins, mixed in 50% copper and now magically they had 2000 coins, which they could spend at original value) on great social works and wars. They did it so much that the original gold coins became so rare that people hoarded them (see Gresham´s law). The same happened with silver Denarius (Roman coin).

In modern information age, you could for example transfer ownership of the gold in fractions of grams (like paying with credit card), additionally, destroying or damaging gold/silver coins isn´t easier, and when you have the coins, you will guard them, after you paid with it it ceases to be your problem.

When you have a limited supply money (critical here is "limited supply", which in and of itself creates the value of the material) then a runaway inflation is not possible (because you can´t simply create more gold/silver from thin air, unlike the dollars that are running from printing presses in their billions and even trillions). The second problem is also solved by the limited supply - if you have an economic growth and the same amount of money, you money raises in value, which makes everything cheaper (this is called deflation, and in working economy you should experience slow and gradual deflation, because we are more and more efficient in producing).

Gold is gold and silver is silver, the only differences in the value of different coins would be their purity and weigth (which would be guaranteeded by the mint itself). In the world today practically every country has it´s own currency and exchange ratios are established. I think that it would not be that difficult to work out exchange ratios between different coins, or it would be even easier (for example you have 0,9999 1oz American Gold Eagle and 0,9999 1oz "Amazonian Great Snake" and it would be worth the exact same value. Or you could just transfer ownership of gold through non-cash transfer.
User avatar
#120 - Nekatroz (09/28/2016) [-]
Your currency is unstable because is not properly "fiat", but what can be called "oil standard"; given that is not as scarce as gold or silver, it tends to shift easily.

About the Greeks, your forgot the eventual victory they achieved against the Persian empire, with flooded them with loot, a lot of gold (while not being the same situation that happened with Dyonisius "half a drachma is one" of Syracuse) which skyrocketed the amount of gold in currency.

About the Romans, limiting the amount of gold and silver in coins wasnt the only problem, you must take in account how this cheap coins were forged by counterfeit, given the low cost of metals involved.

Im aware of what deflation does. What Im taking in account is population size, level of consumption and needed money in circulation. Which takes me to the next thing, blaming the central bank for the millions being printed is to obscure the role of private banking in such situation of "producing out of thin air". While is true, the State allowed them to do that, it didnt help that the demand for printed money by the State was suddenly joined by private banking demands of money, thus, pushing US goverment to search after a commodity not as scarce as gold to keep up the flow of printed currency (besides the inherent problems of the gold standard). If the problem was how to control the amount of printed money, while is the fault of US state, i would blame more shitty legislation rather than any inherent issue related to the state itself.

Gresham Law while applied certainly in the case of Greeks and Romans, devaluation not only happened by the hand of the State, by the act of "denting", or scraping off the precious metal of the coins. Not to talk about what could happen if you take away "oil standard" in dollar and replace it with gold, you could have a reverse Gresham law given that it would weaken the dollar (at least, under sudden change and present conditions).

And yes, i forgot to mention that paper money was accepted, also, out of easier transportation, which you took in account by pointing out how under information age, that would be easier to do. But Im more confident in bitcoin schemes and the like, albeit, im needed of more reading about it.
#123 - thermobil (09/28/2016) [-]
We don´t have oil standard, oil is priced in dollars, that is true, and the whole might of dollar is caused by the fact that it had to be used as a reserve currency by all banks. That era is almost gone as some Middle-Eastern countries wanted to sell oil in gold and some countries (Russia, China) now use each other´s currency to be used as reserve. There is one simple fact - our fiat currencies are not the first ones tried, in history there were hundreds if not thousands of them, and they all failed and went to zero.

Yes, after Greco-Persian Wars Greece was flooded with loot and they used it to fund great social works (temples, infrastructure and so on), but after those wars there were 2 Peloponesian Wars with Sparta, and then they started to devalue their money with copper, because they didn´t stop with great social works to fund the war. The war was costly, bc most of the battles were waged closer to Sparta.

The original Denarius went from 95-98% pure silver to 5% silver. When there is only 5% silver in your Denarius, then it´s easier to forge, of course, because 95% of the coin is made of cheaper metals. BUT - silver in itself has a value, and when there is less silver in your coin it should be less valuable, the problem arises when you try to sell the new Denarius as the old one. Even barbarian mercenaries refused to be paid in Denarius and demanded payment in gold.

All this boils down to this - the state allows the central bank to print money for the State´s deficit spending, it writes a bond and sells it, promising to pay the bond back with some interest, which will have to come from the pockets of future generations (which limits the productivity in the future to increase productivity in the present). As far as private banks go (Federal reserve is also a private bank) the State allows them to do fractional reserve lending, where they keep only a fraction (in most cases I heard of 10%) of your investment and lends out the rest. When you want all of your money back, they have to "print" the 90%, because they simply do not have it, and voila, currency springs into existence. Inflation ensues. The US hides it´s inflation in trade deficits and abroad, exporting dollars and importing trade goods.

Yeah, it would damn well weaken the dollar, because during quantitative easings billions of dollars were printed. Additionally, you can find criminals everywhere, nowadays they are concentrated in the government.

Fiat currency could work, theoretically, if you kept the amount of it stable. Dollar lost 95% of it´s value (or purchasing power) over time, that is´t stable at all.
User avatar
#121 - Nekatroz (09/28/2016) [-]
*devaluation not only happened by the hand of the State, but also by the act of "denting", or scraping off the precious metal of the coins, done by the public.
#88 - balanced (09/27/2016) [-]
How dare you summon me in politicsjunk.
#89 - thermobil (09/27/2016) [-]
Well, we also need your partner in crime, Budget. Where did you leave him? Or does he hang with the bad guys? I just knew that Debt, Unfunded and Liabilities were bad news.