Hahaha, yeah. There really are too many Americans on here for any other sort of opinion. Gun law posts are even worse on this site.

Hahaha, sorry, didn't mean to imply that Tito was a mass murdering shithead like Saddam. I was comparing the stabilizing influence both had on two notoriously unstable parts of the world (Iraq and Yugoslavia) with various ethnic groups that all hate each other. After Tito died and Saddam fell, both regions went to hell.

To be fair, they're not stopping the circle either.

looking back, the original comment was phrased somewhat unlike my usual style.

true, both sides have fucked up in a number of ways. the terrorist attacks don't make what the west does over there okay, but what the west does over there doesn't make their attacks okay either.

what western powers have been doing in the middle east is probably not as related to their stated justifications as we'd like to believe, and it would likely be better all round if they stopped - or, better yet, had never started.

that said, I highly doubt that even 1% of terrorist victims are in any way related to this, and even if they were, it doesn't justify the attacks in any way.

each of these things - by anyone, of any 'side' - is wrong, and none of them justify any of the others.

I may have gotten a little over-sarky when it felt like you were trying to justify it as not their fault, and for that I apologise. but every act of terror, war or oppression is the responsibility of those who perpetrate it, not their circumstances.

This is in France. Freedom of speech exists. It's not their responsibility to not offend people. Especially people that are murdering people from such trivial shit.

there'd probably be fewer drone strikes if they stopped messing about in our countries, blowing up our people.


oh wow, it's almost like it's a circle.

I don't really mind any of these comments, except for yours, because it's the type of ignorance that you display that has resulted in us being bogged down in an unwinnable war for the past decade.

Radical muslims have, indeed, killed some westerners. I remember 9/11, just like you do. But do you have any idea how much of a mess we have made in the Middle East since then? We prop up dictatorships and sponsor coups in their countries, shitting all over concepts of democracy and self rule. We authorize air strikes on almost no intelligence, resulting in dozens of casualties daily. Over 113,000 civilians died as a result of the Iraq War, with another 20,000 dying in Afghanistan, and I don't even know how many have been killed in other countries like Yemen and Pakistan, because our government won't release that information. And yet people still say, "Oh, but they killed some of us, why do they hate us?"

If we want to solve the problem of terrorism, we need to take a good, long look at ourselves too. The sword doesn't cut both ways. The West has been trampling over countries everywhere, not just the Middle East, since the 1800's, and yet people like you choose to ignore that, and instead say "Well, they deserve it because they've killed some of our people."

Fuck man. Anyway, I know this is an unpopular opinion here, but it's my opinion, and its historically informed, so I'm hoping at least one person might read this and reconsider their beliefs, because again, if we want to stop terrorism, we're going to have to reevaluate our current strategies. And I really don't want to live in a world where attacks like the one in Paris are a weekly occurance.

looking back, the original comment was phrased somewhat unlike my usual style.

true, both sides have fucked up in a number of ways. the terrorist attacks don't make what the west does over there okay, but what the west does over there doesn't make their attacks okay either.

what western powers have been doing in the middle east is probably not as related to their stated justifications as we'd like to believe, and it would likely be better all round if they stopped - or, better yet, had never started.

that said, I highly doubt that even 1% of terrorist victims are in any way related to this, and even if they were, it doesn't justify the attacks in any way.

each of these things - by anyone, of any 'side' - is wrong, and none of them justify any of the others.

I may have gotten a little over-sarky when it felt like you were trying to justify it as not their fault, and for that I apologise. but every act of terror, war or oppression is the responsibility of those who perpetrate it, not their circumstances.

You realize that the drone strikes kill civilians too, right? Not just terrorists? And then the relatives of those civilians have a really good reason to hate the West?

I'd like to quote from Metro 2033, one of my favorite games, right now. "Force answers force, war breeds war, and death only brings death. To break this vicious circle one must do more than act without any thought or doubt."

Our current strategy of just killing anyone who looks at us the wrong way clearly isn't working. Is it really that radical to try something different?

To be fair, they're not stopping the circle either.

> the solution to the problem.

Last time I saw something like this, It was labeled "Freedom Bay"

Do people actually think this is a valid solution?

north african coast, somalia, north sudan, muslm parts of nigeria, turkey, muslim parts of india etc still visible.
not a 101% win, but since mecca and the muslims holy meteorite fragment is pulverized, it is proven fact their so called god does not give a shit + is non-existant.

Of course not, they missed the spot in the middle

I hate American imperialism just as much as anybody outside of the US, but they're fucking killing their own people out there just because some people aren't Islam-ing as hard as the others.

Just like the Irish did, over differences of Catholicism and Protestantism. Everyone does it, it's the human constant.
I just think we should let them sort their own shit out.

Not Imperialism. We didn't colonize. Sadly. We should have, and instated our own laws and just taken control entirely. That region needs new leadership entirely.

They had leadership, at least in Iraq. We went in and overthrew it. Yes, Saddam was a complete mass-murdering dickwad, but, like Tito in Yugoslavia, he was a stabilizing factor.

Hahaha, sorry, didn't mean to imply that Tito was a mass murdering shithead like Saddam. I was comparing the stabilizing influence both had on two notoriously unstable parts of the world (Iraq and Yugoslavia) with various ethnic groups that all hate each other. After Tito died and Saddam fell, both regions went to hell.

Imperialism doesn't need colonisation. It also takes into account influence over other countries- the US's influence is huge.

That is exactly what you did to Iran, West Germany, and is exactly what you are still doing to Saudi Arabia, Iraq, and Afghanistan. The people in power there are put there by the American government, living their lives under American drafted laws. Economically, your corporations infiltrate just about every country on the planet , whether it is outsourcing for cheap labor or dominating each and every local market with your big brand names. It is definitely and definitively imperialism.

So, why did it work in Germany, and not the Middle East?

Culture, probably. German culture is much closer to our own than the culture in the Middle East.

We took nothing from them. We gave to them. Yeah, we were there, but I don't think you understand how colonizing works. Our people were not ruling there. We didn't instate our own people to rule them. We chose rulers from their own people. And West Germany is doing just fine and that's where we had the MOST power. All we did in the Middle East was arm them so they could resist the Soviet invasion.

Your idea of imperialism is just regressive imperialism, where you completely ignore local rights and exploit every resource they have to offer (i.e. what the Europeans did to Africa). What the United States is doing now is telling people how to live so the United States is happy. The noble high horse Obama and Bush are riding are still there for war. Yes, in your point of view you're liberating them from oppression, but you are also taking away from their cultural identity and traditional values. You may not technically have an empire, but this is still defined as imperialism.

Well, I don't see a problem with it. Germany.... I still don't know what they were thinking there. And in the Middle East, they attacked us and killed 3,000 innocent civilians. So hell yeah, they're going down. I don't disagree with this modern sort of Imperialism you're talking about, only this "regressive Imperialism" where you exploit and take everything the country and its people have to offer.

Do you know why Al Qaeda attacked you in the first place? It is exactly because of this sense of almost entitlement to run the world like it's yours. You think your system is absolutely right and perfect, so everybody should be run the same way regardless of their religious institutes, peoples, and geographical limits. Using the Al Qaeda attack on 9/11 only further helps my argument. Their methodology is completely devoid of civility and humanity, but their ideology behind their campaign was to reject American rule on their sovereign states. Instead the United States bombs the shit out of the country that's supposedly harboring these terrorists, put in an American appointed government, and 13 years later to this day, that country still hasn't escaped that category of world's poorest countries.
Of course you don't see a problem with it. Your education system is instilling a heck load of patriotic agendas and your media is painting you pictures of a noble crusade. Everyone outside sees this as just another US takeover.

I feel for you man, but judging from the reactions, you're better off not arguing with people on this site. Right now, I think they would rather wallow in self righteous ignorance.

Hahaha, yeah. There really are too many Americans on here for any other sort of opinion. Gun law posts are even worse on this site.

The system that doesn't light women on fire for not obeying their husband would have to be better.

"Your education system is instilling a heck load of patriotic agendas"
The United States educational system is under fire for likening the 9/11 bombers to freedom fighters. The media is degrading the image of our soldiers and our police. You are clearly misinformed.

And also, no. They attacked us because they hate what we stand for, which is a modern world with technology and equal rights for women. Everything in our way of life goes against their religion. They don't give half a shit about our view of the world.

History, current events, and most social studies have different points of view. Yes bin Laden and his cohort are absolutely terrorists in every sense of the word, and yes they are also freedom fighters. Just like you contradictory claim suggests, they are against westernization in their countries, which is happening at an even more rapid pace as technology advances. They are fighting for the freedom to establish their own ruling over their own country. So the American public's backlash against this other side of the argument only paints you even more blindly patriotic. So many of your people are so quick to paint them as an completely insane institution without any motives, and write them down as just terrorists in bold font in your history books. But if you care to look, their motives are plainly out there. They do care about your view of the world, and they reject it because it's against theirs. It is as simple as that.

Dude, you have to realize I'm against fundamental Islam and all the extremist groups to every idea/religion in my first comment. And you have to realize by now that your government's current actions are being labelled as progressive imperialism by scholars across the world. Denying it will not just make it go away. Try building up a more open world view.

and on a side note, you said that the United State is taking away their " cultural identity and traditional values" with progressive imperialism. This is true. That said, there are some aspects of the Islamic "cultural identity" and "traditional values" that are an affront to basic principles of human rights and decency. I understand the point that you're trying to make, but labeling that instantly as a bad thing is ignoring the uglier side of Islam.

Having a different point of view is all fine and fucking dandy, slaughtering anyone who criticizes your own and attacking innocent civilians is barbaric.

The moment you resort to violence on a large scale and block other views through aggressive methods you lose all credibility. Why should anyone respect their motives and their view of the world if they're fucking animals about it? The blind hatred towards Islam that some people hold is equally absurd, but the reason we are "so quick to paint them as a completely insane institution" isn't because their motives are bad, it's because their methods are straight out of the stone age. In your own words "it is as simple as that".

I think everyone realize that you are against amendment Islam, and you seem to be a reasonable enough guy. The United States of America does not exactly have a clean slate, and their methods have been questionable at times. In general; however, they have been better than the former.

In your own words, describing Al Qaeda: "their methodology is completely devoid of civility and humanity". Let me make it 100% clear that the reason people hate them with such fury is this, not their ideology. The actions of a group are what define it, not what they believe in.

Thanks for jumping in and stopping me from antagonizing the other fellow lol. In my first statement so many comments ago, I totally agree that what they're doing is appalling, and they have lost the right to bargain for anything after their attack. The US retaliation at that point was an evil necessity. But that was definitely not the solution to any sort of long term peace. The resistance to westernization in the Islamist region of the world has been so deep-rooted that even second generation immigrants in the western countries, some who have never even seen their country of origin, are taught the same thoughts. So many previous attempts have failed and yet the US keeps trying to pull the same trick. Not negotiating with terrorists is pretty straightforward, but not understanding the situation in full is only sowing the seeds for more trouble.

Pretty sure France doesn't get involved in other countries matey.

Actually they do, France has been carrying out airstrikes in IS territory since september 2014.

the victim of Reverse Vitiligo