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latest user's comments
|#2 - I have no idea what I'm reading but I want porn of it. [+] (4 new replies)||11/20/2015 on Bomango - 6||+3|
|#15 - When they pounce your sorry ass from outta nowhere then you te… [+] (1 new reply)||11/12/2015 on (untitled)||+6|
|#15 - I had a whole spiel about how this guy was completely wrong ab… [+] (15 new replies)||11/07/2015 on Fallout 3's plot explained||-16|
#16 - zomaru (11/07/2015) [-]
No no, he's right. I would argue most of his points, but simply put.
Dad could have just turned it on because then everyone would get free water, but he didn't because the enclave would own it and they were 'evil' to him.
The GECK could really be put to better use then a simple water purifier.
The code surely was pointless, with these rudimentary computer systems bypassing it couldn't have taken but a few weeks at most. And why shouldn't we give it to him, they can't control where the water goes, it filters the river, everyone would benefit from this.
President Eden was pointless, why would they kill off everyone but vault dwellers, even those non pure would do for slaves. Killing everyone is insane even for a corrupt AI.
The enclave and BoS were fighting a pointless war about who gets to push a button. It might as well be the American Civil War at that point. Killing each other just because they were enemies is stupid.
And where do these explosive bouts of radiation come from? Water doesent hold that much radiation. Especially not enough to kill that fast.
And why is you get a bad ending if you don't go in but send in someone else who is immune to the random radiation? It makes no sense. It's not a selfish act. If any one the only selfish one is Dad who decided to kill himself so 'the bad guys' can't have it.
This explains it pretty well. It's a great game, but the story falls apart if you look at it for too long.
#51 - justwantedtosee (11/07/2015) [-]
Son we about to get some education here!
James needed the G.E.C.K for the purifier to work, he said so indirectly when they came to take it over "it simply doesn't work". If he did just turn it on though, the enclave would own it, just like you said.
I wanna take a quick side track to why this is important. See the enclave has had some rough times before FO3, they lost all their power when the oil rig exploded, and had to change their plans. before it was "Kill everyone unpure", Eden still wants this to be the case, but Autumn wants to re-build the enclave to be a superpower again and you can't do that with so limited pure people. You can extrapolate that Autumn doesn't want Eden to go through with his plan of genocide because of the emergency shutdown protocols in Autumn's room. Anyway If the enclave owned the water purifier, they would have almost unlimited support from the entire capital wasteland, the BOS would be unable to keep order, the enclave would rise to power, and possibly dominate the entire east coast, making them a potentially unstoppable force.
The reason this is bad is because while the Lyon's BOS want to keep human's free, the new enclave wants to keep itself safe. The Enclave would therefore have very strict regulations on the lesser grunts that are the people of the wasteland, and take away the ability to be a free people.
And that's just point 1.
Point 2) the G.E.C.Ks use is criticized a bunch but take a look at FO2, at vault city. this area had a G.E.C.K, and not only purified one little section of land, but became extremely discriminatory to outsiders. To avoid this, we simply put the G.E.C.K into the purifier where it affects the whole wasteland, due to the fact the river runs straight through the dang thing. In addition, it works almost the same, as there is vegetation like green grass that grows after you start the Broken Steel DLC, showing that the pure water is working in restoring the entire wasteland.
The Code was for story purposes, the thing you were told to remember as a child is the same that you remember as an adult, the "Dream" of Catherine (you mom) was for the purifier to work, so james made it the code in her honor. again refer to the enclave bit, they can't control where the water goes until they distribute it and then there's a problem.
FO3 has themes about maturity and growing up, the opening intro parallels the entire, game, Jame's logs parallel the character's future endeavors, and almost every faction has an "old" and a "new", and every town has a major change: the Lyon's BOS vs the Outcasts, Eden's Enclave vs Autumn's Enclave, Synth's being accepted into life with people, adults being let into little lamplight, vampires and arefu making friends, etc. Now this means that Eden is not pointless, but he represents the Old enclave, and by the destruction of him, you see the theme of growing up, moving past the old and beginning new.
Again, control over the purifier was essentially determining who had the wasteland's support, so it's not that pointless.
Not sure what radiation you mean, but the impact points of nukes, and the chemical dumps you find around the map, leech radiation into the soil, which radiates the water, etc, etc, etc.
As fawkes says, the purifier is your destiny, everyone else has their purpose in the grand scheme and this is yours. it is meant to parallel things like the wasteland or supermutant conflict: these are issues larger than just ourselves, and while it is easy to have the other's do your job, this is not where their cog is meant to fit. it essentially slaps you on the wrist for trying to cheat the system....or it was just so you wouldn't need 7 different endings cuz they changed that shit when Broken Steel came out.
My entire hobby is explaining FO3 so it makes sense so if ya have more questions pile em on.
#131 - zomaru (11/08/2015) [-]
I wont dispute your points, but I still say the one who own the purifier has no control over the water it produces. Those in the wasteland wouldn't give 2 shits if it was James, or the BoS, or the Enclave who turned it on. Because people in the wasteland are inherently selfish, as necessary to survive. So Autumn in trying to strengthen the Enclave would be better off staying away, maybe using propaganda to trick people who care into thinking he turned on the water at most. Neither the Enclave or the BoS would gain any power from maintaining the water purifier. They would both benefit, so it's irrelevant who is the one taking care of it. Any logical person in this instance can see letting Rivet City take care of it is the smartest option.
So why does the BoS and the Enclave want it, easy, because the story dictates it, and nothing more. They wanted a big battle between Enclave and BoS. So they needed something tangible to fight over. Water seems like an easy answer, because it's hard to get purified water. But their method is all wrong, because without control of the water, the purifier is completely useless as a strategic resource, it's just a resource available to all once turned on.
#70 - bothemastaofall (11/07/2015) [-]
We know James needed the GECK, but it would be put to better use in literally any other function. Seriously it makes life from non living material.
Why would it be bad for the Enclave to be in power? Now we have law and order and a functioning society.
We still have no reason not to give the code.
#76 - justwantedtosee (11/07/2015) [-]
Think of it this way: the goal of the G.E.C.K is to make life where life isn't able to be created. In Fo2 we run into a sample of the G.E.C.K being used correctly: vault city. they are a bunch of discriminatory and elitist asshats, if you're an outsider you get a pretty bad treatment (if you have an extra toe from radiation they react worse to you). In Fo3, I believe that the point of the purifier is to make the G.E.C.K more widespread. Vault city may be large, but not "entire capital wasteland" large, and that means that the G.E.C.K would only have one point of influence then. Much like Oasis, this area would be thriving while the rest of the wasteland is out of luck.
It's easier to think in the long-term: with clean pure water for the entire wasteland, soil no longer saps radiation from it, thus vegetation is allowed to grow. With this, settlements can establish farms (before they had alternative food sources; rivet city has the hydroponics lab, megaton hunted animals and traded, and little lamplight ate wall moss) which means sustainable food. with sustainable food and water, those in the wasteland are able to thrive much easier, and can make more places habitable, meaning larger settlements. Overall this will lead to a good but steady future for the immediate wasteland, rather than the immediate salvation of one small area (which could cause conflict over who gets to be in it).
The BOS fight for protection, while the Enclave fight for progress. now what is stopping them from destroying free areas and forcing others into servitude in the name of that progress? it's basically a fight to keep the wasteland free, even though with that comes some disorder.
I Like to think James didn't give them the code because then they would not need you. Bu not giving the code, you became i priority target but also one that is no use to them dead. James had one goal; to protect his son/daughter, it's why he abandoned PP and the vault, so by keeping the code secret, he in turn made your life valuable to them (note once you tell autumn the code he shoots you and you die)
#102 - justtocomment (11/07/2015) [-]
Explain to me, please, how a water purifier in the river gives anyone power? Supply and demand. It purifies the ENTIRE river, no matter who turns it on! Even if it did only purify a tiny portion of water: why would I pay out the ass for it? If I'm already surviving anyway off current resources, why would I was caps and resources for.... Slightly better water?
And the code is pointless. We're looking for an activation signal, not a fucking encrypted data disk. With the resources and tech both Enclave and BoS have, either could have gotten through in no time. But instead they put Dad up to the gun and the Dad puts his fucking one-in-a-million shot at purification on the line by overloading the system. After all the shit we went through, he almost blows it up so the "wrong" people don't flip the switch.
As for the G.E.C.K. - Vault City was a perfect example of bad execution. The purifier was a perfect example of fucking retarded ass execution. Why not take the GECK and set it up with whichever side you believe in? Wouldn't a fully functional GECK make more sense than a big fucking Britta filter? How is either side supposed to make a power grab by making the entire river clean water for the Wasteland?
And then theres the player: why should he do anything? Assume they NEED the code, because somehow (defy logic) Project Purity is the key to a power grab in the region... Why would the player care who does it? Clean water for the wasteland: that's our goal. The purifier isn't a localized event so the whole Aqua Pura bullshit that follows is just shoe-horned in as well.
And then your followers: let's say Fawkes really is some morally superior intellectual and says your death is destiny. Why the fuck would your Ghoul companion say "no, I won't go into that lovely radiation that tickles my anus so tenderly and makes me feel like a thousand bucks"?
In the end, you are left with two options. Die turning it on (either you or Autumn) or puss out and let someone else die (unless we add DLC, in which case you can pay 19.99 to be the hero and live).
#109 - justwantedtosee (11/07/2015) [-]
So if you have the Broken Steel DLC, there is a time where you see that the BOS has taken over the purifier, and with this they have taken over the distribution power of said water. While there is a whole purified river, there is also danger about that river, so one needs to depend on a power to distribute it. If you go to Megaton, a group of people will attack a convoy distributing water, showing that the BOS is getting some flak for where the water goes. This is why they have power, and why the Enclave would have power too: the ability to distribute water requires power and resources that only the BOS or enclave had, so if either one got it and started distributing, they could easily say "we need you to do this for us and we can give you water". Because it's not a business, but an effort to restore the wasteland, there are no sales made, so you don't pay for it, but the enclave might make you do things for more. In addition, while your character might be okay with dirty water, remember two things: those beggars near cities, who can't even drink irradiated water because their bodies reject it, and the fact that clean water means farms and sustainability.
James didn't risk the purifier, he overloaded the system but because it wasn't purifying anything it flooded the area in lethal radiation. The code was a button code of 10 buttons with 3 possible choices of buttons that can be repeated, now that's a lot of choices. since it's not a terminal it can't be hacked, and to our knowledge there's no keypad breaker. Again aside from the code being something to tie Catherine with the purifier for story purposes, the code is a means of keeping you alive, and making sure that only those James trusts would be able to work with him.
There is a random encounter where you find some guys talking about journeying to Oasis to raid it. This is because it sets up an easy target; a nice spot of land that everyone wants to be in. Now because it's not big enough for everyone, there will be fighting and people might rebel against the side you're on. So to avoid conflict they make it into something that helps the whole wasteland, the message that 3-dog spews the entire game, and it's also a solution that won't make the BOS a main target, as rivet city guards are also attacked, so it means it's basically whoever escorts the water is being targeted, not a specific faction. The power grab, again, is in the power of distribution.
The Player's goal the entire first half of the game was to find his father, The enclave killed him, there's basically grounds for revenge. if your father who stayed by you and tried his best to help you stay safe, went missing and once you find him he gets killed, i'd assume you'd want to get those that caused his death (as indirect as it was). They also mention that the BOS helped your father, so the player would choose the BOS over the enclave because the BOS seems a lot better.
Charon mentions that he doesn't want to go in because he's payed his contract to you, he says it's on you, which again corresponds to this being your job, to finish what james started.
Death is a way they ended the game because there's a memorable story of sacrifice there: the family that risked everything they had to save the wasteland.
#126 - justtocomment (11/08/2015) [-]
>James didn't risk the purifier
Yeah he did. Remember after you kill Autumn, Lee comes over the intercom. She says something along the lines of "if those valves aren't released the whole facility will explode." - you can try to pitch some alternatives, but she says there's no time, or whatever.
>Not a terminal
I didn't say hack it - I said bypass it. Like I said: we're looking for an ON/OFF switch. Even the most complicated machinery in the world has a switch that dictates which components are receiving power. No reason it couldn't be bypassed, given enough time. But there isn't enough time because James totally put the purifier at risk.
>Bad people are trying to do bad things
All the more reason to A) operate the GECK out of a secured facility like the BOS headquarters, or B) turn on the system and let it run, let the wastelands figure out the trade routes themselves. Rather than dedicate an entire faction to being the sole distributor of Aqua Pura.
>Charon's bullshit excuse
Is bullshit. It's like this: I owe you a debt, so I become your roommate. We live together and whatnot for literally an indefinite time period. One day you look at me and say "hey, bro, can you go into this totally cozy room that literally heals your wounds while you're in it and punch a couple digits into the keypad for me?", to which I reply "nah dude. I just agreed to be your roommate. This is more than I signed up for". It's fucking bullshit: we could have gone and nuked Megaton, asked Moira to come do it. She'd fucking go for it in a heartbeat!
>Death is the way the game ended...
Unless you pay 19.99 - in which case you get to save the day AND live - otherwise you save the day and die, or be a total dickbag and live. I got the GOTY edition, so I played (and enjoyed) the DLC. But Fallout 3's story was railroaded harder than a Native American ancestral homeland.
#137 - anon (11/08/2015) [-]
Well i suppose one of them justwantedtosee what would happen and the other wanted justtocomment.
#39 - pennydragon (11/07/2015) [-]
To be fair, while I love Shamus' arguments, he comes to conclusions based on gameplay and he ignores an obvious though implicit motivation.
In gameplay he didn't see a lot of water problems and issues stemming from it. Thus he dismisses the whole point since the game glosses over all the details. But for the purposes of understanding the plot, radioactive water is bad and can cause radiation sickness in people, animals, and plants.
The game may gloss over the implicit issue with the Enclave taking the water purifying plant, but controlling the plant and exerting influence over more people gives the Enclave more power. President Eden is crazy pants and genocidal, as makes sense as he was programmed to follow the old Enclave mission. But Autumn seems to be stealing this technology so he can make demands that others must obey if they want access to clean water. Autumn doesn't want it to be free for everyone, he wants to steal it so he can profit off of it.
This fits in with one of the themes of Fallout, that war doesn't change, it's fought for resources, power, and wealth. All as outlined in the introduction of the very first Fallout game.
#40 - zomaru (11/07/2015) [-]
Sure, the over arcing ideas are present. But in practice, as they are, it kinda falls apart. Like I said, once its turned on, we are to assume it can only be maintained and not turned off. And the water is accessible by anyone near the river. The Enclave or the BOS have no power then, in fact I would expect them to fight over who has to be the one to maintain it, not fight over who gets to.
#42 - pennydragon (11/07/2015) [-]
If they can't turn it off or alter the output pipes so they lead to storage units rather than back into the lake for everyone, that's completely ridiculous and would completely remove any meaning from the conflict.
If someone says that in game, I'm tempted to think it's a mistake, because otherwise the primary conflict of the main quest and all the actors in it makes no sense at all. And it would be horrible, even more so than the magic super radiation that you specifically are supposed to walk through for "reasons".
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Rev up that false equivalence in the comments!
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