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User avatar #10992 - jokeface (02/14/2013) [-]
I need someone to explain the omniscience paradox to me again. I keep trying to resolve it but I still don't even understand why it's a paradox. Every time I go over it in my head it seems very simple and straightforward.
User avatar #11029 to #10992 - noblexfenrir (02/15/2013) [-]
Sigh, again:

Okay let us say you make a decision, this decision is influenced by your past experiences, and the events that happened well before you were even born. Yes, you have free will to make the choices you do, and in that respect it is free will...unless there is a god.

Because as I explained awhile ago, god is supposedly omnipotent and omniscient correct? That means he chose to create the universe in a specific way and if your god is real, then he even interfered many times before influencing events even further. Now, because god is omnipotent, there is an infinite amount of options he can do in a specific situation in which he interferes, and because he is omniscient, he knows the change in future events and repercussions of any action he commits.

Therefor, if god commits a specific action, he is choosing a specific path of events to occur. Your choice may seem like free will, but it has not only been pre-determined but it has been CHOSEN to happen. We can say with high probability that your choice would either be different, or that choice you just made would not have existed at all, if god had chosen another action.

Does that explain it?
User avatar #11043 to #11029 - jokeface (02/15/2013) [-]
I understand what you mean about our choices being influenced by the circumstances that arose from past events leading up to a decision, but as long as it feels like free will from our own perspective, then I still consider it free will, period. Yes, God may have known the events leading to that decision were going to happen, but from our perspective, no one is controlling us, and in that regard I believe we are free.
User avatar #11049 to #11043 - noblexfenrir (02/15/2013) [-]
No, god didn't just know the events that would lead to that decision, HE CHOSE the path those events would take. That removes it from free will, subjective feelings have nothing to do with objective reality. Is a slave really a slave if he doesn't think he's one? Is a woman really in an abusive relationship if she attributes punches to love? Should a murderer not be sent to jail because he didn't think he killed anyone, instead he "saved" them? Are kids really being molested if they are told it means that the adult loves them and they want the adult to love them?

Again, if there is a god, we have no free will. The perception of free will is cute, but isn't real if those are the circumstances.
User avatar #11054 to #11049 - jokeface (02/15/2013) [-]
He chose circumstances, not how we would respond to them. Limiting our option and removing our options are not the same thing. Take the story of Adam and Eve for example. God created the universe, created the Garden of Eden, created Adam and Eve, and created the Tree of Knowledge. He created circumstances. But He never forced them to sin. He knew they would eat from it by their own free will, and He was prepared to respond accordingly. But they still made the choice to eat from it. Not Him. Them. And everything that's happened ever since they made that choice has been a result of them sinning.
User avatar #11055 to #11054 - noblexfenrir (02/15/2013) [-]
He chose circumstances that would lead to our decision and knew the exact decision we would make based on those past circumstances. I don't know how many times I have to say the exact same thing. It is only our decision and free will if it is purely drawn from causation, if there is an omnipotent and omniscient being, you will never make a decision that the being does not already know you will do, and such a being will already have set up events to coincide to a specific decision, from the soda you drank yesterday to the sock you decide to put on this morning. I get that you can't conceptualize such a thing, but that isn't my problem, I am explaining it to you.

Also that's a bad example because god interacted with Adam and Eve alot, meaning he absolutely knew and MADE them eat the apple and fall.
User avatar #11065 to #11055 - jokeface (02/15/2013) [-]
You used to be fun to talk to man. Intellectually stimulating. But now you're just spewing out random sentences to contradict me. "MADE them eat the apple"...I'm done. You don't know what you're talking about.
User avatar #11128 to #11065 - noblexfenrir (02/16/2013) [-]
Random? It was an explanation based on the reasoning I gave you, it only contradicts you because you don't understand the process I am trying to explain to you.

I would love to be that fun loving atheist who has discussions with you about science and the natural world, but you need to start realizing logical conclusions and realize, especially on this matter, that just because you can't conceive something, doesn't mean that wouldn't be the case. I know exactly what I'm talking about, my entire reasoning is based off simple causation involving an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent being.
User avatar #11143 to #11128 - jokeface (02/16/2013) [-]
"Just because you can't conceive of something, doesn't mean that wouldn't be the case," said the atheist to the Christian.
#10993 to #10992 - mysret (02/14/2013) [-]
Was that like 'Can God create a stone to heavy for him/her to lift?'. In that case, the paradox is: If he is almighty, can he create a task he can't complete?

If he/she cán make a task that he/she can't complete, he/she isn't almighty because he/she can't complete the task.
If he/she cán't make a task that he/she can't complete, he/she obviously wouldn't be almighty.
Also, almighty = omniscience.
User avatar #11018 to #10993 - jokeface (02/14/2013) [-]
No, I'm referring to the thing about how, if God is omniscient, how can we have free will? I think the two qualities can coexist, but a lot of people don't believe so.
#11019 to #11018 - mysret (02/14/2013) [-]
Oh. Well, consider it this way: You have a choice between A and B, and you choose B.

Now, God exist, at least he/she does in this scenario. It was your free will that choos B, but that doesn't make it less predetermined. God didn't make you say B, you did, but because he/she is almighty, he alreadu knew what you where going to choos.

Also, is it choos or chose?
User avatar #11020 to #11019 - jokeface (02/14/2013) [-]
Exactly, He's not taking away your free will. He knows what you'll do but you still have the freedom to choose.
#11021 to #11020 - mysret (02/14/2013) [-]
That's what I said, so yes. Also, is it choos or chose?
User avatar #11022 to #11021 - jokeface (02/14/2013) [-]
Choose is the present tense. Chose is the past tense.
#11023 to #11022 - mysret (02/14/2013) [-]
Oh right. Thanks buddy.
Also, why do you want to know this stuff?
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