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What do you think? Give us your opinion. Anonymous comments allowed.
#3 - thermobil (07/28/2013) [-]
There is no emotion, there is peace,
there is no ignorance, there is knowledge,
there is no passion, there is serenity,
there is no chaos, there is harmony,
there is no death, there is the Force.
#305 to #3 - anon (07/29/2013) [-]
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Though passion, i gain strength.
Threw strength, i gain power.
Through power, i gain victory.
Through victory, My chains are broken.
The force shall free me.
#176 to #3 - anon (07/29/2013) [-]
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.

Prepare to die, Jedi scum.
User avatar #65 to #3 - YllekNayr (07/29/2013) [-]
I actually just learned this 2 days ago.

Playing KotOR for the first time.

I can finally get more Star Wars references.
User avatar #229 to #65 - masterspectre (07/29/2013) [-]
Good for you!
User avatar #59 to #3 - forceman (07/29/2013) [-]
You need me?
#37 to #3 - loopz (07/29/2013) [-]
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
User avatar #128 to #37 - snowshark (07/29/2013) [-]
See, here's what I don't get. Why is pretty much every sith we meet evil? Why does doing evil things make you a sith?

You see, that code there doesn't say anything about being evil, yet sith are always depicted as the evil guys, wielding the dark side of the force. With even a modicum of critical thinking the obvious flaws with the system comes apparent.

The Jedi are impotent and sterile. Their detachment from anything worldly means their detachment from the force.

Whilst on the other hand the sith allow their humanity to be their strength. Their passion makes them strong. But why does that make them evil?
User avatar #312 to #128 - joehue (07/29/2013) [-]
I can't help but remember, "History is written by the victors."

Now that I take a step back and look, earlier on during the Clone Wars and such, doesn't it seem like the Sith were more humane? The Republic had mass produced a clone army, disposable humans, but the thing was they were still human. The Sith on the other hand, had a droid army, never really thought of it that way before. Of course it changes later on, but it's crazy when I think about it.
User avatar #316 to #312 - snowshark (07/30/2013) [-]
Not really. When you really think about it all, clones are nothing more than machines made of squishy stuff. Saying it's more/less humane to use them instead of machines means nothing because you could argue that machines have as much right to their existence as bio-matter beings.

What is more, the Sith oppressed the planets which they conquered with force and coercion whilst the Jedi went about more peaceful means. Their war-machine had a face and a personality to it which was kinder to the civilians.

The fact that the clones are bio-matter is rendered moot when you see that droids can express free will, making them arguably as alive as a human, however they're not programmed with personality and they are marched en-masse into suicidal pushes for land whilst the clones value their lives just a little more, using tactics and so on.
User avatar #243 to #128 - thephantur (07/29/2013) [-]
The embodiment of "power corrupts". Once you gain a taste of absolute power you gain strength.

The Jedi code states that their is no emotion but, in reality, they go for the lesser ones. They still rely on friendship and the emotion of calm. The Dark Side, on the other hand, uses the user's own emotions as strength. Rage, fear, those are some of the most powerful emotions you will ever feel and that is what is usually used. If you read some of the books they go in depth over how the Sith feel when drawing on their powers. That strive to survive, fear of death, can spurn great acts of power.

It's because you feed on these extreme emotions that you find yourself corrupted. I'll use Darth Bane as an example. He was poisoned and left for dead. He used his fear, his pain, to power one last assault against a father and his children, literally draining their life force to sustain himself. Once you taste that once, that power to live when you should have died, it is intoxicating. The Sith will do anything to achieve their goals because they have nothing holding them back (i.e. emotions) which is why we view them as evil.

Also, it is the modern way of the Sith to be "evil" there used to be civilizations who utilized the dark side of the force but were not "evil".
User avatar #261 to #243 - snowshark (07/29/2013) [-]
I imagine those civilisations were the witches portrayed in the animated series?

See, this is the kind of thing that I wish there was more of. That struggle for balance. It is arguable that corruption exists whenever you get something you want and the struggle against that corruption is what really makes a good story. Wether you fall to it or from it or even rise above it, no matter how the story ends it can always be fulfilling.

However the Jedi are sterile. They are the paint-by-numbers good guys who hold shallow morals that are easily flawed because of how absolute they are. How they hold back the strong and endanger the weak.

The Sith are also bad, however whilst the Jedi are sterile the Sith are virulent. They soak up any story or drama they're put into because everything revolves around them. They are always stronger than the Jedi making them good foes to overcome but when you follow a Sith story they wade through strife and are made stronger by it. (See Saiyan Handbook.) They are just as absolute as the Jedi but whilst the Jedi are altruistic the Sith are Hedonistic and whilst that makes for a better story it can lead to some thoroughly unrelatable characters.

The Middle ground is where it is the most interesting. it contains elements from both sides but without the absolution. There is only one line to be crossed, the line between Sith and Jedi, however the objective is not to cross the line but to straddle it.

It is well known that the best way to live in the world is to balance yourself, but neither the Sith nor the Jedi do this. thus they are weak. The Jedi forsake emotion and the Sith forsake trust.

The reason the best games have you as neither of them, rather lets you walk your own path between the two, is because that is where it is the most compelling.
User avatar #264 to #261 - thephantur (07/29/2013) [-]
I believe I was referring more to the Rakata. The Dark Side made them into fearless warriors and founded an Empire. Many would view that as evil but...

The witches were just plain corrupted. They were pretty damn "evil" if my knowledge serves me correctly.

Don't tell this to other Star Wars fans... but... I found the movies lacking.

What you described can be found throughout the books. Books do what movies cannot, they go into the character's mental struggles and I recommend you read them. They're amazing.

From what I garnered, a middle ground is achievable but, for most people, it just makes you weaker. The best example for someone who achieved this "balance" is Mace Windu, master and refounder of Form VII fighting style. That style uses the person's emotions in battle, very "dark-esque" though he is still a Jedi Master. He was powerful enough that the only challenge to his saber prowess was Darth Sidious, another master of the blade.

The books go into so much more than the movies... the movies are great fun but if you're a lore-monger which by what I see you are, the books give sooo much. Oh and the Wiki. I've spent countless hours reading the wiki.
User avatar #272 to #264 - snowshark (07/29/2013) [-]
I detest the prequels. The original movies are great and serve as the perfect entry-point to the canon for a new watcher. Not much is explained but the tones and themes are set out very well.

I have been a loremonger ever since Warcraft III (that's going back a ways...) and only recently have I gotten back into books. (I love 'em but I've been too busy of late.)

I do plan to read some of the better Star Wars novels but I personally prefer film to words. I love them both but to me film is a far crisper way of divulging information as well as a far more subtle one. A good filmmaker can hide so much in a good film (2001 is a commentary on IBM. HAL is just one letter removed from IBM and the letters appear in the high-def version of the film, decades after it was first made and the film-maker died.) I am just pained to see how few good film-makers make it to these big projects these days though.

I don't expect Stanley Kubrick, but I wouldn't mind another Spielberg or a Joss Whedon. They don't need to be artsy, but just understanding of the quirks of the visual medium. Whilst words carefully craft you a storyline like a thread that you follow, letter by letter, gradually building the tapestry that is the story; film is a mosaic that gives the story to you in blocks. Each frame is a block and each frame can contain so much that words could never adequately express.

Astonishing visuals and tones that grasp at your very soul and wrench your emotions out of you.

Each medium has it's own benefits. Words allow for patience and divulgence. Graphic Novels allow for a mix between film and word. But film allows sight and sound, our two most important senses, to be stimulated and manipulated in such ways that we could never have imagined.

... wow... I went off on a tangent...

Uhm... about the witches though, I meant more about Ventress. She and Ahsoka are currently outside of the two big factions and will remain there for some time. Hoping to see more of them in Rebels.
User avatar #285 to #272 - thephantur (07/29/2013) [-]

Where these who you were referring to? I don't know much about them, I haven't really read any books on them. Like you it's been a while since I've had time to read.

All I really know about the Nightsisters are that they used the Dark Side and I believe their leader being killed? by a Jedi at one point.

I believe they were quite unpleasant.

The prequels... while they were "fun" to watch they really lacked any insight into the lore of Star Wars as you put it. The original 3 were better but it's hard to put so much lore into films that most thought was going to flop.

I hope they go back to the way it was in the original 3 for episode VII and I hope they go more into the minds of the Sith. It's a pity that the Sith were portrayed as simply evil in the movies.
User avatar #293 to #285 - snowshark (07/29/2013) [-]
Agreed but in honesty there really isn't much more to them than that. There may be the odd protagonist or two in their ranks trying to do good and drama comes because he's surrounded by Sith but that's all down to them being evil in the first place.

Good stories come from a variety of different relationships and when you can't trust anyone... well... you get the idea.

I take it you've not seen much of the animated series. Whilst I'm aware it's not the strongest material out there and it can be hard to get your hands on as well as being pretty shallow at points and catering to a younger audience it does far better world-building and has much better characters than the prequels.

It is sort of a blend between the prequels and the original trilogy. There are a lot of entertaining fight scenes like the prequels but they have weight behind them like with the original films. They have plotholes like the prequels and the tone might not be what is best for the storyline but like the original series it is intended to be a fun adventure series that is a little more than meets the eye.

There's some empty episodes that are clearly there for the kids but the majority are actually pretty clever.

The undoubted best aspects though are the characters. Whilst the prequels had no characters at all (rather cardboard cut-outs who talk sometimes) the animated series pretty much NAILS Anakin. He is the exact person I imagined him to be. Everything that was done wrong in the prequels is done right in the animated series and there is a clear progression in the characters, the tone of the series and the universe itself as the empire slowly grabs hold of the republic.

What is most impressive is how the clones actually become relatable characters. They are all the same but distinguish themselves in little ways and it really makes for interesting characters that I am actually sad to see die.

Hell, Even Jar Jar does something good... by being almost completely absent.
User avatar #294 to #293 - thephantur (07/29/2013) [-]
I've never seen any of the animated series. I should probably give them a try but I haven't heard much on them so I've been weary.
User avatar #297 to #294 - snowshark (07/29/2013) [-]
Well, there are two notable animated series thusfar.

There is an original one drawn by the guy who did samurai Jack and it really shows in it's tone. It is far less child-friendly and has a lot of goodness to it's two seasons. It's episodes were shorts that occurred between episodes on cartoon network back in the day and they were really popular, hence a CG animated series was made.

Whilst the hand-drawn series was very thematic and tonal, focussing on more silent stories and allowing the atmosphere and actions to dictate the plot to the watcher, the CG series was more of a character study. In the beginning it was pretty kid-friendly and it's clear that it was going for a less serious tone than the shorts, however as time passed more and more good things came from the series as you saw it progress alongside it's watchers.

Whilst it is still irritating seeing some of the more obvious blunders in the writing and it's not as well-crafted as something like Avatar: The Last Airbender, its focus was on the characters and in that respect it delivered time and time again.

It's been cancelled since Disney took over but they have announced that the whole writing team has been moved onto a new project set during the rise of the Empire called Rebels. Everything about it indicates a far darker tone than the series that came before as well as possibly an increased budget and the same characters.

Honestly, if you're a fan of Star Wars I'd say both series are must-sees for different reasons.

(This is also the first time we see General Greivous and his cough is actually explained in the animated series.)

User avatar #300 to #297 - thephantur (07/29/2013) [-]
Okay. I was afraid that it would be too childish and deviate too much from the story because of that. Apparently not. Will give it a try. Thanks.
User avatar #304 to #300 - snowshark (07/29/2013) [-]
And where it does deviate (namely the inclusion of Ahsoka) the series and the overall universe is better off for it.
User avatar #303 to #300 - snowshark (07/29/2013) [-]
Oh it does do that sometimes. Just most of the time it does not. The first season of the CG series is the hardest to bear but from the second season on things begin to take a far firmer shape as the writers really get to grips with the kind of tone they want. Sadly, there are still some episodes that don't make the cut in every series but seeing as you're a knowledgeable guy I imagine you will be able to ignore the irritating aspects and focus on what makes the series really good.

The 2D series is more consistent in it's dark tones though. It's clear the writer and animators know their **** and the Samurai Jack-ness of the series is very clear.
User avatar #228 to #128 - masterspectre (07/29/2013) [-]
You should read The Legacy of the Force series it brings the Sith into a new light.
User avatar #262 to #228 - snowshark (07/29/2013) [-]
I've a lot of books on my read-list. I fell out of reading a few years back and only recently remembered how much I love it. Could you sell it to me a little better so that I can get a better understanding of why I should read it. Maybe even bump it up the chain a few places?

I love the Star Wars universe but I hate the way most of the time we are forced to see it as shades of black and white as opposed to the true greyness that makes the world so much fun.
User avatar #266 to #262 - masterspectre (07/29/2013) [-]
Well first off its the series in which Jacen Solo become a Sith, and second it shows the Sith don't nessicarily have to be evil for example the reason Jacen becomes a Sith is to unite the galaxy and stop it from falling into chaos.
User avatar #281 to #266 - snowshark (07/29/2013) [-]
Sounds like a read. Cheers.
User avatar #282 to #281 - masterspectre (07/29/2013) [-]
#147 to #128 - anon (07/29/2013) [-]
I never quite got that aswell, what i do remember in Swtor if you play a light sith sorcerer. your master scolds you for not using your freedom to kill people as the sith code ' demands' my character countered it by saying that it was also freedom to choose to let them live.
User avatar #149 to #147 - snowshark (07/29/2013) [-]
It's just really shallow writing on the part of Lucas that nobody's had the balls yet to come along and challenge. The Status Quo is god, after all.

Heaven forbid both sides of the conflict have legitimate reasons for doing what they do, making them relatable. No, you're either a good guy or a bad guy. Of course, there is no middle-ground (y'know, like is viscerally established in both KotOR games) there is only right and wrong.

Urgh. When the animated show for cartoon network is the one which shows more dynamic characters you really begin to wonder just who should be writing the series.
#154 to #149 - ktkthegreat (07/29/2013) [-]
Hm, a friend of mine that really loves the kotor lore (Revan in particular) was talking to me about the existence of dark jedis. That they are not affiliated with either side. Being sith means being part of the evil team and that whole package, being dark jedi means you use the force for your own ends without necessarily adhering to the sith or jedi.
#155 to #154 - ktkthegreat (07/29/2013) [-]
"The term Dark Jedi was a collective and vague name of dark side practitioners (be they fallen or rogue Jedi) that used Force powers and a lightsaber, but were not always members of a certain organization; whereas the term Sith refers to a definite heritage or ideology."

User avatar #136 to #128 - xortrox (07/29/2013) [-]
And now you realize that Darth Vader DID fulfill the prophecy of bringing balance to the force.
User avatar #148 to #136 - snowshark (07/29/2013) [-]
What prophecy? You mean the really vague mcguffin that Lucas foisted onto the universe in order to make Darth Vader into Space Jesus for no good reason?

(Sorry, I just ignore anything that clashes with the canon established in the original trilogy. To me, Anakin will always be just another Jedi who was good at his job and a great pilot. Not a whining, bitching mary-sue. Essentially, the way he is portrayed in the Clone Wars animated series.)
User avatar #263 to #148 - ICEDgrunge (07/29/2013) [-]
From what I've read, Darth Plagueis, the master of Darth Sidious, was a dark lord who attempted to figure out the science behind the force, and that of creating life. To this end he began to figure out the ways midi-chlorian cells worked and manipulate them to his own devious ends. Nearly a decade before his death, Darth Plagueis, and his apprentice, Darth Sidious, committed an act in direct violation to the nature of the Force. To further the Grand Plan (Simply ruling the galaxy in basest terms), the two Sith had attempted to will a being of their own design into creation, pouring their malicious intent into waves through the Force to the countless midi-chlorians spread across the galaxy. The experiment yielded unfruitful however, as Plagueis perceived the Force growing silent to his probing. When Anakin Skywalker was discovered by Qui-Gon Jinn in 32 BBY, Plagueis became convinced that the midi-chlorians, unwilling to comply to his and Sidious's "unnatural" usurpation of the power of the Force, struck back in retaliation, conceiving a savior to ultimately destroy the Sith: the prophesied Chosen One.

Essentially, Plagueis was in a way successful in creating this life form, but it came in a way that only achieved what he wanted after his death, naturally at the hands of his apprentice, Darth Sidious. After death he remained a strong presence within the force. And after death a strong desire not to rule, but for revenge erupted from his being for Sidious. To this end, that was Anakin Skywalker. In the darkest sense, after Vader killed Sidious, stabilization was brought to the force, but at the same time, Plagueis' quest for revenge was fulfilled and his quest since he rose to becoming a master became evidently successful.
User avatar #267 to #263 - snowshark (07/29/2013) [-]
Yeah that's all very interesting and well thought out but it's all ******** . That only matters if you care about Sidious and Plagus and frankly I and a lot of other people don't. We care about Anakin. That story isn't nearly as compelling as that of one of the greatest warriors for good betraying his brethren for the sake of his own ambitions. In the Plagus story everything Anakin does is outside of his own control.

He doesn't rise through the ranks because of his own skills, it's because he's a space-jesus who gets everything handed to him on a silver platter. When I think of Anakin I think of a man who devoted his very soul into changing the galaxy for the better. A man whose morning, noon and night were the Jedi code. His skills came from him being good at what he did, from practice and strength, not from some deal with the devil that went tits up for some old farts.

When Anakin turns evil (and I don't know how it "should" have happened nor do I want to, I just know it shouldn't have been because he was a winy bitch with no self-confidence or belief in his teachings who was pushed over at a moment by a tricksy old fart who somehow manages to befuddle the entire Jedi order for several years)... when he turns evil I imagine it to be a great fall of something great.

Anakin in the prequels is never anything great. He's a bad egg from the start. In the Plagus storyline he's nothing more than a puppet who never earned anything he got.

You see the Plagus storyline may well have been magnificent if we were following Sidious and Plagus, but we weren't. We never were. We followed Anakin and Luke. In my personal headcanon they earned everything they got which made it so much worse whenever they lost it. Every battle was hard-fought and every victory as great as every defeat was terrible.

That is my problem with the prophecy. I hate it because it is a cheap plot point that sacrificed one of the most promising storylines in recent history, castrating a great character.
User avatar #78 to #37 - stimtheone (07/29/2013) [-]
I found it much easier to remember the Sith code rather than the Jedi code.

I needed to write it down to pass the test, hoever the sith one was embedded in my mind.
User avatar #60 to #37 - forceman (07/29/2013) [-]
I won't free you! Not even for a Klondike bar!
#30 to #3 - loopz has deleted their comment [-]
User avatar #32 to #30 - demonchain ONLINE (07/29/2013) [-]
You're comment looks quite good, and I'm trying to take it seriously, but that picture... Each time I see that I think of the "tickle my anus and call me Samantha". It ruined it man.
User avatar #72 to #32 - ghostofwisebox (07/29/2013) [-]
what picture was it?
User avatar #38 to #32 - loopz (07/29/2013) [-]
I fixed it
#34 to #32 - loopz (07/29/2013) [-]
Scrap my last comment, is this better?
User avatar #35 to #34 - demonchain ONLINE (07/29/2013) [-]
Now this is awesome man. Cool picture.
User avatar #36 to #35 - loopz (07/29/2013) [-]
Darth malgus, release trailer for Star Wars: the old republic is the sauce
#47 to #36 - anon (07/29/2013) [-]
It's funny because it has the storyline from KNIGHTS of the Old Republic and they slightly altered things for the MMO. (Malgus is a modified Darth Malak). Even comment #3 was part of a quest in KotOR, even if it is basic jedi code.
User avatar #39 to #36 - demonchain ONLINE (07/29/2013) [-]
That's the mmo, isn't it? I've been meaning to try it out, but to be honest... My home is on Azeroth, so I haven't gotten really around it yet.
User avatar #45 to #39 - loopz (07/29/2013) [-]
Ya it's the mmo, it's pretty decent, leveling experience is ok I gues. The raids are really fun though, having a good time with them so far.
User avatar #46 to #45 - demonchain ONLINE (07/29/2013) [-]
Alrighty then, I'll be sure to check it out. Thanks man.
User avatar #33 to #32 - loopz (07/29/2013) [-]
It's the sith code, and I chose the closest thing to sith that I can.
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