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User avatar #89 - nebuchadnezzaurus (04/02/2013) [-]
Great, another "Videogames taught me that" post. What a load of ******* ******** . I love videogames, some of my favorite CRPGs are the so-called "deep" ones, but I know better than to call them a source of personal enlightenment. We have BOOKS for that. Ever heard of those? The day a post like this, but about actual good BOOKS, makes it to the frontpage, is the day I will never see, because of ********** teenagers like OP who believe that the entertainment industry is the new Dostoevsky.
#668 to #89 - Darkrin ONLINE (04/03/2013) [-]
you do know that a books, video games, movies and shows can all say the same thing.
so what makes books better?
User avatar #842 to #668 - nebuchadnezzaurus (04/03/2013) [-]
Do you actually want to know my opinion on this or did you just jump on the bandwagon?
#843 to #842 - Darkrin ONLINE (04/03/2013) [-]
by all means elaborate
for all i know you truly could be right and everyone else that has read what your have written could be wrong
User avatar #860 to #843 - nebuchadnezzaurus (04/03/2013) [-]
Well I feel I've elaborated on it quite a bit in my comments below, but just to reiterate my two major arguments (to remind, my point is that while a game may have an interesting story and characters, it's a bad source of moral guidance or philosophical insight):
1) Games (at least the games OP mentioned) are made by huge companies for profit. Great classic books, conversely, I think you'd agree weren't written to make a quick buck.
2) Games offer you a choice. To the extreme point of offering you to be the villain, killing dozens of people, robbing, stealing, and getting away with it. Some games that OP included allow you to do this. In a good book however, the villain always loses/is punished in the end.
3) Most of these "messages" are just rehashed from other sources, anyway, and some of them are just plain stupid (like the Skyrim one - "to be born good" - as opposed to being "born bad"? Assuming this applies to our world (which OP implies), how many evil babies have you actually seen? "Men must be free to do what they believe" - what, you mean like Hitler did? and so on, so forth.
#944 to #860 - Darkrin ONLINE (04/03/2013) [-]
Few things with what you said.
1) Games that are of this quality take while to make and a lot of people working constantly, most take years to make.
2) Just because a company makes a game shouldn't take away from what they made
3) Someone can choose to be a villain yes but you can also choose to be good (like I do)
4) So once again you can't take away from the game just because individual plays the bad guy, also almost everyone that does play the bad guy wouldn't do that in real life.
5) If the message if taken from somewhere else they also give the message in a new way that may get through to some people while some people may not get the message as well as if they read a book
User avatar #862 to #860 - nebuchadnezzaurus (04/03/2013) [-]
*Three arguments, sorry.
User avatar #277 to #270 - nebuchadnezzaurus (04/02/2013) [-]
...And you're probably too young to even understand what I was trying to say
User avatar #287 to #277 - thedarkestrogue (04/02/2013) [-]
age does not define intelligence and understanding. I met an 8 year old who understood quantum physics better than i could ever hope to. You make very brusque and crude insults that have no base. I am done arguing with a sycophant such as yourself.
User avatar #294 to #287 - nebuchadnezzaurus (04/02/2013) [-]
On your way out, you might want to look up the definition of the word "sycophant".
User avatar #302 to #294 - thedarkestrogue (04/02/2013) [-]
i think it fits nicely. You seem to want to please the book gods, trying to prove that you're better than everyone else on this website by saying that books are the be all end all in story based media.
User avatar #331 to #302 - nebuchadnezzaurus (04/02/2013) [-]
No hard feelings, friend. You've made some very interesting points, even though I don't agree with them.
User avatar #281 to #277 - luciferiam (04/02/2013) [-]
Lol no, I understood completely what you said but I could already tell talking to you would be like explaining evolution to a mentally challenged devout religious zealot.
User avatar #284 to #281 - nebuchadnezzaurus (04/02/2013) [-]
Well, you're wrong. There's nothing I like more than a meaningful conversation with arguments well-grounded in logic.
User avatar #301 to #284 - luciferiam (04/02/2013) [-]
If you did you wouldn't be saying something so ridiculous. Many mediums stretch across other mediums constantly with various conversions, which completely negates your argument. By your logic, as long as a video game was translated into the format of a book it then could be brilliant. /facepalm.
User avatar #312 to #301 - nebuchadnezzaurus (04/02/2013) [-]
No no, you didn't understand me correctly... There is Uncle Tom's Cabin, and there's Pokemon (or any other mainstream/commercially successful video game produced by a huge company). Don't you think they aren't equal in terms of personal and spiritual enrichment?
User avatar #325 to #312 - luciferiam (04/02/2013) [-]
Have you played brilliant games like BioShock and BioShock Infinite (I've got Bioshock on the brain so I can't name others atm lol)? The storys in these games make many books look like a joke compared. Exactly how you would compare Uncle Tom's Cabin to Pokemon level. You are massively generalizing and that's where the problem lies. There is masterpiece level "personal and spiritual enrichment" in all mediums, just as there is pure garbage and everything in between within those mediums. Comic books and Manga also contain stories that contain so many complex themes and discussion worthy matters I personally pity those who remain ignorant of them. There are plenty of books that are pure junk, look at series like Twilight and even Harry Potter, the quotes in these games the OP posted are more powerful then probably the entire sum of those ridiculously depressingly popular series.
User avatar #357 to #325 - nebuchadnezzaurus (04/02/2013) [-]
That's a good argument. Of course, now I retract anything I implied earlier about you being unable to understand my point. I agree that remaining ignorant of new tidings in culture is likely to be harmful for someone's "enrichment" as a human being. As is being overly conservative about some things. You've almost made reconsider some of my points.
User avatar #143 to #89 - nebuchadnezzaurus (04/02/2013) [-]
Okay, I get it, everybody around here is a videogame enthusiast (that's like an anime enthusiast, except instead of looking for moral guidance in anime, they look for it in games). There's not a single person who agrees with me. Everyone thinks that Dragon Age is the new War and Peace. I guess since I have no supporters here, I might as well quit bothering.
User avatar #211 to #143 - thedarkestrogue (04/02/2013) [-]
No, we're intelligent while you are stubborn. Great stories and advice dont just come from books. They come from all around us, be it video games, movies or even small encounters on the street. They are meant to represent life and no one form of media can convey that.
User avatar #217 to #211 - nebuchadnezzaurus (04/02/2013) [-]
Great, now you're calling ME unintelligent. Sorry, I think I've had about enough of this
User avatar #258 to #217 - thedarkestrogue (04/02/2013) [-]
Intelligence only goes so far. Your stubbornness is what is making you look the fool.
I'm not calling you unintelligent, but I am by no means calling you smart.
User avatar #135 to #89 - stallwallwriter (04/02/2013) [-]
I once read in a book, a fairy tale actually, five good pieces of advice. The last of them was one that really stuck to me:
"If you come across a teacher or a wise man, stop and listen, if only for a minute. You may learn something."

What I'm getting at is that just because there is a wealth of information in books doesn't mean that we should reject wisdom from another source. If it's worth knowing, who cares where it comes from?
User avatar #129 to #89 - luidias (04/02/2013) [-]
>implying games aren't a form of art with both ****** and good messages
>implying there aren't ****** , meaningless books

video games, movies, music, literature... all can be deep and meaningful, and all can be ****** and empty. what do you care about the medium? in this case, it's the message that matters. If the idea behind it is sincere, the medium should not discredit the message.
User avatar #122 to #89 - thedarkestrogue (04/02/2013) [-]
I see no difference in video games and books. All video games are, are books that you can see and be a part of. The story can give the same feeling, the same meanings. There is no difference.
User avatar #128 to #122 - nebuchadnezzaurus (04/02/2013) [-]
If you really want to argue this, please refer to what I've already written below. If not, good day.
User avatar #138 to #128 - thedarkestrogue (04/02/2013) [-]
all of your "arguments" are irrelevant. Not all video games give choices, video games are not meant to be beaten but experienced, the mentality of people who "beat games" are childish. Video games aren't focused at a demographic like a TV show is. Only the ****** ones are. All the games i have played have been about the story, thy don't care who buys it. The GTA thing, thats your choice, you do that, then maybe you should go get some counsellin because thats all you.
I read and write stories for both books and video games. I find that some books' works of fiction are beaten out by the incredible works of fiction that some games have conveyed. It seems to me like you are being completely biased towards video games as if books are your only friend or something.
I believe that counters all of your irrelevant points.
User avatar #152 to #138 - nebuchadnezzaurus (04/02/2013) [-]
A videogame lets you be the villain. It might not punish you enough, or at all, for being one. Most of the "deep" type of games offer you to be a villain. What's the point, then?
User avatar #209 to #152 - thedarkestrogue (04/02/2013) [-]
on another note, that's completely irrelevant. books have been told from the perspective of the villain as well.
Its just a writing tool.
User avatar #214 to #209 - nebuchadnezzaurus (04/02/2013) [-]
Yes, but if it were, he'd die or get punished in the end. Always. If not, it's a bad book/movie. A game allows for the villain (you) to go unpunished. That is bad, because if you take the game seriously (like Op suggests), then the moral derived is "the bad guy can get away with doing bad things".
User avatar #256 to #214 - thedarkestrogue (04/02/2013) [-]
and sometimes the moral doesnt need to be delivered in the first book. Sometimes the author wishes to not convey a moral at all, leaving it open to interpretation on purpose. Thats what makes stories great.
User avatar #253 to #214 - thedarkestrogue (04/02/2013) [-]
Np. Not always. That punishment is the choice of the story writer. Sometime sthe villain winning makes for an excellent cliffhanger. You argue these "points" yet you seem to know nothing of how to write and the story architecture. A good story is all about how the author chooses to convey it.
User avatar #265 to #253 - nebuchadnezzaurus (04/02/2013) [-]
And you don't seem to have READ many. Name one classic book where a villain isn't ultimately punished in some way. There just isn't any, because the MORAL is that the villain always loses, no matter how many chapters or even books it takes. Even in the cases where the villain is the main protagonist (off the top of my head, "The Murder of Roger Ackroyd" by Agatha Christie or even "Crime and Punishment"). Yeah, I realize you can write a book where the villains wins, but there'd be no moral in it (apart from the wrong message that "doing bad things is good"), so we wouldn't even consider such a book for the comparisons we're making. From where I'm standing, it all seems crystal clear, so I really don't get why you're still struggling to understand these basic concepts...
User avatar #276 to #265 - thedarkestrogue (04/02/2013) [-]
That is an accusation without evidence. I have read many books. You seem to have a childish naivete that all things need to end happy or that all good books need to have a protagonist who represents good with a moral in the end.
Not all books need an evil villain. Not all games have one either.
Not everything needs to have a moral. I have said this twice now and you blatantly ignore it.
You are trying to argue against one specific trope.
User avatar #271 to #265 - nebuchadnezzaurus (04/02/2013) [-]
Just to clear things up even more: we're not talking ANY book, we're talking a supposedly "GOOD" book with a moral, just like we're taking supposedly "good" (enriched with a moral/philosophical message, or so OP claims) video games, and not "bad" ones, like GTA or Manhunt.
User avatar #278 to #271 - thedarkestrogue (04/02/2013) [-]
not all "good" stories need morals. Thats like saying all cookies need to be chocolate chip. They're all fine and dandy but not always what people want.
User avatar #288 to #278 - nebuchadnezzaurus (04/02/2013) [-]
Okay, maybe I was wrong about "a classic book always having some kind of moral to it". To hammer the final nail in my argument's coffin, I ask you to name some one that doesn't. After all, you "have read many books" - surely you can name one? And I'm talking classics, something you'd study in an English class at school, not Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings, even.
User avatar #293 to #288 - thedarkestrogue (04/02/2013) [-]
The Catcher in the Rye has no morals. It is only about a boys rise to manhood.
You want to argue against that? You will be arguing against every English Professor i have ever met.
User avatar #199 to #152 - thedarkestrogue (04/02/2013) [-]
perspective. Even Danny Trejo has addressed this.
"I love playing the bad guy in movies, because the bad guy always dies.
That’s the real world. If someone askedme to play a bad guy that always
gets away with it, I’d pass. That’s the very message I preach to youths
who are in crisis and in trouble…the bad guy always loses and the good
guy always wins. It’s the one‐thing movies and real life see eye‐to‐eye on”

Sometimes the villian's perspective makes the story. Or sometimes hes not really a villain at all but a man who's been through hard times and only relies on what he knows, such as killing....i.e Booker Dewitt. You could call him a villain.
#196 to #152 - peakpillow (04/02/2013) [-]
not all videogames let you be the villain, just like how not all books have a hero as a protagonist.
User avatar #140 to #138 - thedarkestrogue (04/02/2013) [-]
Pardon my misspellings, it was rushed.
User avatar #106 to #89 - aldheim (04/02/2013) [-]
Videogames can have storylines as well written and compelling as a book's.
**** , videogames can have the same storylines as books.

The only difference is how you interact with the media.
#97 to #89 - rockyshand (04/02/2013) [-]
Videogames tell you a story just like a book. While you can say that books are better, your argument will only be an opinion. The fact remains that a well made game will tell you a story that you can learn from. Same goes with Television and Movies. Knowledge is not locked only in the form of a book.
User avatar #112 to #97 - nebuchadnezzaurus (04/02/2013) [-]
What if Romeo and Juliet were a video game? You'd probably have the option to not drink the poison, or choose not to "romance" Juliet altogether. Great story, right? Besides, most people who make games are an average white male, who hasn't suffered or been through any kind of great emotional turmoil that ultimately makes the best works of fiction, or even documentaries. They just copy stuff that's already been said, put a new wrapper on it, slap a serious expression on a character's face and there you go - a new "Crime and punishment" with an optional happy end as a DLC.
#117 to #112 - rockyshand (04/02/2013) [-]
No I doubt they'd give you an option to change the story, and if they did then it wouldn't be Romeo and Juliet. And the bit about "average white males", you have no idea what any one person goes through in his life. Self conflict is hidden, no one knows what you fight about within yourself at any given moment of the day. Not until you show them from your knowledge learned from that internal struggle. So saying that they "haven't suffered" is clearly wrong. We all suffer at one point.
User avatar #127 to #117 - nebuchadnezzaurus (04/02/2013) [-]
I get your point about the possible great suffering that video game designers go through. But still... video game is exactly what it is - a GAME. Its primary purpose is for people to play and "beat" it - however different the actual goal of the game may seem, in the end it's the same. A book however, is written to make a point. You don't "play" a book - its letters are carved in stone, there are no options for "better" outcomes - it's what a true lesson should be. A video game, by letting you choose the outcome, defies the very purpose of a lesson.
TL;DR there's no saving and loading in books.
#131 to #127 - rockyshand (04/02/2013) [-]
I'm sorry but I can't agree with you there. Isn't the goal of a book to finish reading it? Why should that differ from a game? To complete it. To finish the story?
User avatar #148 to #131 - nebuchadnezzaurus (04/02/2013) [-]
It's not about videogames having an ending (some of them don't). It's about the possibility of altering the story. If you can change the outcome of the story, what's the point of it? If we take your videogame to the extreme, you can just not partake in the story whatsoever. Moreover, you can become the villain, and nobody will be able to stop you. And the moral of some particular story will be - it's okay to kill people, because it amuses you. BAM! Great story, I can already see it becoming an all-time classic.
#157 to #148 - rockyshand (04/02/2013) [-]
Not all books have a good ending. In fact there are books that follow the criminal's point of view rather than an outstanding citizen. Your generalizations do not refute any point I have made, there are books that don't have endings, and books that don't tell a story. Even though I disagree with your reasoning I respect you standing your firm ground for what you believe. Have a nice day.
User avatar #94 to #89 - maskedguardianmkii (04/02/2013) [-]
You are underestimating the power of a video game. Video games offer immersion. They offer interaction. You get to know a character, their words hold more power. You hold them higher because you have met them. Not just listened to what they had to say, met and interacted with them. It doesn't matter if they are fictional, it is the actions they do and the words they carry that matter. They have a face and a voice.
User avatar #103 to #94 - nebuchadnezzaurus (04/02/2013) [-]
You're arguing against a point I didn't make. I didn't say video games weren't immersive, or that you couldn't identify with a character. Ever seen a reality show? You can identify with a person in that show, they have a face and a voice, you can feel with them, immerse yourself in the atmosphere of the show. Does that make that person or character a good role model? I'd say probably not (see Jersey shore). What I'm trying to say is, you shouldn't look for moral lessons or philosophy in a ******* VIDEO GAME, because it's a product made by a company to serve a certain demographic's need for entertainment. I'm not saying videogames aren't interesting (they are, of course) or that they can't have a good story with memorable characters (I can name a few that do), I'm just questioning their credibility as a source of moral values.
User avatar #108 to #103 - maskedguardianmkii (04/02/2013) [-]
>It's a product made by a copmany to serve a certain demographic's need for entertainment.

You are writing off an entire form of media as useless because you think it has nothing of value to give. For some context, remember Bill Watterson? His series, Calvin and Hobbes, was a way for him to argue that comics could be a viable form of art. He put a passion into them that other artists didn't and in the end, he was accepted and honored for it. Comics became something more than just Sunday funnies because of him. They became something we could relate to, and, I cannot stress enough, something we could learn from. Video games can do the same thing, provided that you are willing to let them influence you. Comparing every video game to Jersey Shore is a horrid method of proving yourself right. I might as well judge every book by just looking at Captain Underpants. People can, shockingly enough, make video games for reasons other than money or business. Like books, they are another way of telling stories. Books were new to people at one point in time. Video games are new to people now. People like you seem to write them off pretty quickly though.
#119 to #108 - karesokin (04/02/2013) [-]
Maskedguardianmkii... You are a beautiful person for voicing the opinion of people that have been inspired by videogames
Maskedguardianmkii... You are a beautiful person for voicing the opinion of people that have been inspired by videogames
User avatar #118 to #108 - nebuchadnezzaurus (04/02/2013) [-]
First of all, thanks for an in-depth reply without resorting to childish insults. Secondly, I'm not writing off videogames as a form of artistic expression - I just don't find them to be a good source of morals. You can kill an entire neighbourhood in GTA with little to no consequences. What moral lesson should we extract from that? Would you give a child a video game as moral guidance? Video games may be art (whatever that is - a topic for a whole different, and pointless, discussion) - but "art" isn't necessarily moral. That said, OP only included big, commercially successful titles in his comp - and I think you wouldn't argue that those are made for profit. To compare them to great works of fiction... is quite insulting to the latter, actually.
User avatar #123 to #118 - maskedguardianmkii (04/02/2013) [-]
I have to disagree. After all, Romeo and Juliet is to books what Half Life is to video games. And yes, there are plenty of games that teach no lessons whatsoever, but then again, the same could be said for books.
User avatar #121 to #118 - karesokin (04/02/2013) [-]
To you sir, I would give my child Mass effect or Dragon Age anyday for moral guidance, since both teach you many lessons, such as "Stand up when facing impossible odds" and many other great morals that will make that child a beneficial person in the society
User avatar #134 to #121 - nebuchadnezzaurus (04/02/2013) [-]
You really can't understand the difference between, say, Uncle Tom's Cabin and Dragon Age™?
User avatar #126 to #121 - karesokin (04/02/2013) [-]
Although, I will agree that some games, like GTA, i would not give to my child, just like I wouldn't make my kid watc Jersey shore, OR read the twilight Saga. There are always exceptions, but if the message is good and it helps make that person BE a better person, who cares where is comes from.
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