Peace. . RELIGIO mout / ERYONE Woudl JUST BE EACH OTHER.. As it turns out, people who don't believe in an afterlife are far less likely to want to die for a cause
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#6 - teranin (03/06/2013) [-]
As it turns out, people who don't believe in an afterlife are far less likely to want to die for a cause
As it turns out, people who don't believe in an afterlife are far less likely to want to die for a cause
User avatar #2 - davvda (03/06/2013) [-]
If it wasn't religion it would be something else. The human mind will always find a way to fear what makes us all different. I'm not saying you're wrong because you aren't but I just think we shouldn't focus on religion as the problem, we should focus on our own thinking and perception of things.
User avatar #3 to #2 - jovisman (03/06/2013) [-]
I know that if it wan't religion It would be something else.This is meant to counter the accusation that if it were not for belief in god that everyone would just go around killing people.
User avatar #4 to #3 - davvda (03/06/2013) [-]
I fully understood that :)
User avatar #5 to #4 - jovisman (03/06/2013) [-]
Cool I just didn't want anyone to think that I was saying that the only reason for murder was religion.
#1 - anon (03/06/2013) [-]
To be honest you're right. Coming from a catholic man myself. Religion does play a big part in the wars across the globe.
User avatar #7 - Vandeekree ONLINE (03/07/2013) [-]
I see your point, but I'd say that getting rid of religion would be like taking away the gun from the murderer, he'd just use a knife instead.
Religion is used as an excuse, it is not the cause.
User avatar #8 to #7 - jovisman (03/07/2013) [-]
except then religions depicted above have explicit instructions to kill in their holybook.
User avatar #9 to #8 - Vandeekree ONLINE (03/07/2013) [-]
True, but then you're lumping all religion into one group when clearly some have very differing beliefs. Why not instead say "Islam, without is everyone would just be killing each other"
You really can't use the worst of a group to show that all in that group are bad.
User avatar #10 to #9 - jovisman (03/07/2013) [-]
actually most holy books encourage if not demand terrible acts
User avatar #11 to #10 - Vandeekree ONLINE (03/07/2013) [-]
The bible does not, at least not with the new testament. Old testament was pretty heavy on the death penalty
User avatar #12 to #11 - jovisman (03/07/2013) [-]
Luke 19:26-27
“He replied, ‘I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what they have will be taken away. 27 But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.’
User avatar #13 to #12 - Vandeekree ONLINE (03/07/2013) [-]
Well if that's what you are going to quote then you clearly didn't read it in context. Jesus is not saying that, he is telling a story in which the king of that story says that. It was said to teach a lesson. Not to show that you should follow the ways of the king in the story he's telling.
The context is quite crucial.
User avatar #14 to #13 - jovisman (03/07/2013) [-]
I know context is important and I know the context.But people tend not read holy books in context.They pick and choose what they want to believe.You can justify nearly anything from any holy book.You can also justify anything from Moby dick The langoliers,etc.,.Only holy books are taken as the "Gospel truth". Giving the followers the religious freedom to do whatever they want and believe they will be rewarded in the afterlife.Some Christians in the U.S. use the bible to defend killing abortion doctors and blow up buildings.Atheists have no codified laws telling them to do such things.Thus the Irony of the statement of the post.
User avatar #15 to #14 - Vandeekree ONLINE (03/07/2013) [-]
I completely agree that people abuse the bible and interpret it in ways that let them justify actions that simply aren't in the bible. You're really not the only one bothered by that i promise.
But if you look at the bible, really study and learn about what is written, then it becomes clear that even the more vague parts have a single resolute meaning when taken in the context of the bible as a whole. There are some verses that simply can't be interpreted, they are statements about what is acceptable and when you fence in those parables and interpreted verses with the resolute laws, you get a much clearer picture.
What i'm saying is, those people who do such things, ESPECIALLY the killing, simply have not read the whole bible, they have taken small verses or even worse, taken the word of other people on what the bible says.
So tying back into where we started, please do not lump all religious people, even of the same religion, into one basket.
The bible has tiers of rules, and the golden rule at the top is to love everyone like you would yourself. If anything you think the bible says breaks that rule then you should look at it again. e.g. killing someone is a terrible way to love them
User avatar #16 to #15 - jovisman (03/07/2013) [-]
My problem is the fact that if "god" is all powerful he could have made sure to put do not kill EVER in the ten commandments.And could have made sure that the bible has no way of interpreting it wrong.Unfortunately you can use the bible to endorse anything.Such was the case of slavery in the U.S. The bible was used to say that slavery is wrong by the abolitionists.And to the contrary by bible thumping slave owners.Unfortunately the latter had a better case when reading the bible in context.God could have made sure that this would be impossible by making slavery one of the ten commandments instead his itemsishments of coveting which by the way help capitalism in america and most of the free world.
User avatar #17 to #16 - Vandeekree ONLINE (03/07/2013) [-]
He did say you couldn't kill. One of the commandments is "thou shalt not kill" and yet people are the ones who say "well....what about...."
It can be interpreted, but it's not supposed to be, like it or not there is a set of rules that are in the bible. "EVER" doesn't appear because it should already be in there. It's understood that "don't kill" means "don't ever freaking kill another human directly or indirectly you idiot"
As far as slavery, it's less two groups arguing over interpretation, it's about one group trying to justify with the bible and another groups correcting them. The bible does not support civil war era slavery. it clearly states that you aren't allowed to force anyone into slavery. Slavery was a contract deal where one person would agree to work for the other for a set amount of time, usually to get out of poverty. Also, biblical slaves were still fully considered citizens and if an owner killed a slave then he would be put to death, also if he left a permanent injury the slave was to be immediately released. The parts about beating a slave were not there to say you were allowed to beat a slave, they were there to say you weren't allowed to leave permanent marks nor kill the slave, they were to limit the punishments and show what the most extreme punishment could be. In all reality, the original meaning of the word slave was more like indentured servant but even then the slaves had more rights than indentured servants of colonial times.
As for capitalism, i don't think i could call it a good thing, but also it differs from coveting someone else's belongings.
#18 to #17 - jovisman (03/07/2013) [-]
First there is a difference between murder and kill.Murder is what the original text.Please if you do not know the difference look it up(not meant in any way as a slight as the text form could imply).Secondly god could have made sure that the bible would have called them indentured servants rather than slaves(in my opinion neither is good).I am in no way saying that you are like any of these people in the post.I in fact believe you are quite moral In Spite of your religious beliefs.You are able to understand that things are evil with out you holy book telling you in plain words instead of You need to login to view this link I know you will not change your mind until you read your bible without preconceived notions of what is in it.I do hold you in high regard and hope that you do read it that way one day with out blinders on.
Good day
User avatar #19 to #18 - Vandeekree ONLINE (03/07/2013) [-]
Well when i said kill i thought it was implied that i meant killing a human aka murder. Though i admit i didn't look up the verse, i paraphrased or attempted to at least.
But you see, God did make the bible say that, it is just that the translation to English turned it to the word slave and then the English word slave was morphed into our current understanding of a forced worker who is abused. That is why it is important to understand what the bible says as a whole and not just look at one word and assume it means something.
But you see, without "my holy book" there is no way to tell what is right or wrong. The only thing you have to base it off of is how you feel, and that can differ from one moment to the next and from person to person. It's simply arbitrary where as the bible is from a higher source, an omnipotent being who can see all and thus can tell us what is actually right and wrong.
And i'm sorry but that is simply insulting to say i have blinders on when reading the bible. I'm not saying i don't but when i look at the bible or any other religious or none religious text i strive to look at it unbiased and with the mindset that it is wrong until it proves itself to me logically.
So how about you? What if i were to say that you are the one who has blinders on. Looking at the bible through the eyes of someone who has already decided it is wrong. Have you ever studied it? Not just read but actually studied it?
I don't mind a civil discussion about these kinds of things but do not presume that just because we disagree I am the one who is blinded by bias and preconception.
User avatar #20 to #19 - jovisman (03/07/2013) [-]
Just so you know I was a Christian for almost 23 years indoctrinated as a child.And I really did believe.Until I took a look at the bible without my blinders on.I am sorry if that offended you that was not my intent.If god made the bible he could have made sure when it was translated it would be understood.He or She is after all omnipotent even with free will he or she could have made sure that the translations would not be incorrect.Yes I have studied the bible many times in many forms.I even entertained thoughts of becoming clergy.Of course everyone has misconceptions.I try every day to get rid of all the misconceptions I can.I know I will never be able to get rid of them all in what is in the grand scheme of things a short life.But at least I try.There is nothing more I can do than try.Lastly you say that without a divine being that all morals are up to the person.So if I want to rape or murder I could.I suppose you could say that.But if you are only not doing things because you will receive eternal bliss or what ever your belief is that is not being moral only doing what you are told for a reward.I am now a humanist.I would hope you would at least look at what humanism is.I think you may find it a better moral guide than theism.You may also understand that moral relativism could be evaded with careful thought.
User avatar #21 to #20 - Vandeekree ONLINE (03/07/2013) [-]
i am somewhat familiar with humanist philosophies but it's not one of the schools i've looked at extensively i admit. If you have any thoughts to share or links to places they describe it best in your opinion i'd appreciate it.
As far as the careful thought to evade it i'd also like you to explain further and maybe send me to a link where it's explained.
But if you think that a true christian is driven by the urge to avoid hell and obtain heaven then you misunderstand the bible i think. You see, good deeds are done out of love, that is what is supposed to drive you. Yes hell and heaven are there to help keep you in line so no one can say "well why do it if you get the same reward/punishment?" but the actual purpose of doing right and avoiding wrong is the love of others, the love of God, and even the love of yourself(in a none vain way of course)
And while i obviously don't know your story or why you moved away from Christianity nor which sect you were a member of, i can really only wish you the best and hope you revisit the bible and to look at it more closely because i assure you the closer you study it the more "oh!" moments you'll have.
i assure you, looking at the bible without blinders is how it was meant to be read and again, please don't assume that because everyone doesn't drop it like you did that they are simply wearing "blinders"
User avatar #22 to #21 - jovisman (03/21/2013) [-]
Sorry for such a late reply. My new migraine medicine screws with my short term memory. www.americanhumanist.org/ is a good start to learning about humanism.
As far as what moved me away from the christian faith is concerned. I just read the bible.
As I said before god could have made sure the bible would not need any interpretation to be a good person. Another way to help would be to tell everyone on the planet at the same time that he exists. I cannot understand why believing something on little evidence (having faith) is a good thing. But to each his or her own as long as they do not try to impose their faith on others. Unfortunately at least in the U.S that is not the case. Like I said before I am very sorry for the late reply I hope you understand why I forgot.
User avatar #23 to #22 - Vandeekree ONLINE (03/22/2013) [-]
Sure thing but...
the reason he doesn't reveal himself is because it would mess with free will. If you could look up and see a great eye in the sky that growled at you every time you did something wrong you wouldn't so much as sneeze. No child steals a cookie when their mother is looking. He gives us the chance, the choice to do wrong and wants us to reject it, not out of fear, but out of understanding why we should.
Also, thanks for the link.
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