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User avatar #218 - Cambro (06/26/2012) [-]
>Be God
>Fill world with more than enough food for everyone thro plants and animals
>Leave fertile places all over the earth, including Africa which is extremely fertile
>If I spread the food out, man will have to learn to love and be in community with each other.
>But then Western nations hog all of the food and also the money with which to buy more food
>Radical religions have wars in Africa and block aid from the actually good people on earth
>Africa is starving because of man's mistakes
>Man makes meme about it, calling me "scumbag God"
User avatar #233 to #218 - jacksontp (06/26/2012) [-]
>Claim to be extremely powerful
>'says' to love everyone no matter what
>lets man **** up anyway
#238 to #233 - anon (06/26/2012) [-]
Because man has this thing called free will...
#247 to #238 - bobsagetissocool (06/26/2012) [-]
If god is taken to be able to do anything and know everything, then mankind cannot have freedom of will because god will invariably know the outcome of every situation. If he cannot know the outcome of every situation, however, then he is not omniscient and is therefore also not omnipotent. This would mean that god is limited in his power, which would contradict the Christian doctrine of god's power.
User avatar #262 to #247 - Cambro (06/26/2012) [-]
ah! You've stumbled upon a truth that theologians are beginning to wrap their minds around. Simply assuming it means God is illogical is a lack of critical thinking. It is not an issue of logic, but an issue of definition. You and others define omniscient to "knows everything" but it truly means "knows every truth." If a decision has not yet been made, God cannot know it 100% for sure. That does not mean, however, that God knows nothing. He simply doesn't know that decision because it is not yet a truth. Who that person is, from personality, to past history, to interests, and to what they value, are all truths that God does know. Therefore, God can guess with pinpoint accuracy what each decision will be. He knows all of the outcomes of that decision as well by doing the same guessing game based on absolute knowledge of all truth. Therefore, God not only knows this universe, but every possible alternative universe as well with 99.9% accuracy. Then, as you can see, what you raise does not limit God, but rather multiplies his mind by knowing a different universe for every alternative option in a decision making process.
#269 to #262 - bobsagetissocool (06/26/2012) [-]
But in not knowing what "universe" will be affirmed in the multiplicity of potential paths, god shows the limits of his knowledge.
And no, actually, omniscient DOES mean that one knows everything that there is to know.
Even if one were to define omniscience as you have, god is still therefore not omnipotent because his knowledge is still limited in scope.
User avatar #274 to #269 - Cambro (06/26/2012) [-]
I am saying the definition you cite is wrong. And it does not limit God by omniscience at all. Knowing all truths is all-knowledge. For instance, God cannot know a spherical square because one is absolutely impossible to exist. And yes, remember I said 99.9% accuracy of knowledge of decision making based on personality (it is relevant to note God also crafted the personality so he knows it beyond just simple past actions)? There is at least one example in the Bible where God predicted judgment, but the man repented and God relented his judgment. The .1% is where free will and mercy lies. It is what makes the Christian God the best idea of God over other religions.
One last point: you're saying not knowing which universe is affirmed limits his knowledge is off base. You assume our universe is the "affirmed" one, when that is only from your perspective. Each universe is real and God knows all of them. Each and every universe is 'affirmed.'
#276 to #274 - bobsagetissocool (06/26/2012) [-]
Which shows that god made the WRONG prediction and therefore did not have all-knowledge.

If we play the "all possible universes are true" game, then if I were to predict that, say, Barack Obama will win the US election (I'm not American), and he lost, by your logic, I am still right because that potential path is still true.

Let us take Hume's example; if I am playing pool and a friend intends to hit the ball, there are myriad different potential paths that that ball can take. Because I do not know what move he shall make, there are myriad different paths for the ball to take, most of which are equally probable. There is no actual information constituting knowledge, but only information constituting potential knowledge. Until that information is empirically verified by his hitting the ball, I do not know what path the ball takes. Knowledge comes only through the actual experiencing of said event.

So it is with god; he may be a divine predictor, but insofar as he, as you have admitted, cannot predict situations with ABSOLUTE accuracy, he necessarily cannot have ABSOLUTE knowledge.
User avatar #277 to #276 - Cambro (06/26/2012) [-]
your Hume example proves my point. Knowledge does not exist and cannot exist if the truth behind that knowledge does not exist. Therefore, there is no absolute knowledge for God to even have because you are using a faulty definition of "absolute knowledge." Omniscience then is, as I stated, "absolute knowledge of all TRUTHS"
#278 to #277 - bobsagetissocool (06/26/2012) [-]
But this still agrees with my initial point regarding god's knowledge; given that things have free agency as is suggested by Christian doctrine, god cannot have all-knowledge (if it is an error in having called all-knowledge omniscience, it is a relatively minor one; my point is still apt) because all-knowledge is not possible when the actions of things are freely determined; this therefore means that there are limits to god's power.
#270 to #269 - bobsagetissocool (06/26/2012) [-]
IF a person has freedom of will, then their past does NOT lend absolute knowledge of their future decisions, because that would suggest limited agency insofar as it shows an inherent propensity towards a particular mode of action. If one had free will, a completely random action that conflicts with the boundaries of god's knowledge could and would inevitably arise.
User avatar #244 to #238 - cullenatorguy (06/26/2012) [-]
does god not have a plan for everything then?
User avatar #241 to #238 - jacksontp (06/26/2012) [-]
Not the point of my comment, he says he loves all and would die for us. yet he wont stop something in his oh so powerful reach
User avatar #268 to #241 - Cambro (06/26/2012) [-]
God is avoiding a dictatorship. If God were outwardly seen and known (physically for everyone) and what he approves or disproves of was outwardly known and also enforced, man would have no choice but to obey. There also would be no shot at mercy. If one disobeyed, they have no excuse and they are cast off to hell. Therefore, God remaining invisible and not forcing his will in all of his power on man is actually a great mercy. It is unfortunate man has ****** it up
User avatar #272 to #268 - jacksontp (06/26/2012) [-]
Well with all the brown nosing from Christians saying how powerful he is then he should be able to do so in a manner of us not knowing
#232 to #218 - bobsagetissocool (06/26/2012) [-]
>Be Christian God
>Pit thousands of species of animals against each other in competition for resources
>Make it so only some members of those species are fit for survival
>Make moral system celebrating the ones who are not fit for survival and condemning the ones who are fit for survival
>Call man evil for fighting over limited resources
>Call self pure good despite supposedly manufacturing life in a manner which benefits the creatures you consider evil
>Scumbag God
User avatar #240 to #232 - Cambro (06/26/2012) [-]
There should be no competition for resources. There only is because Western nations use excessive amounts of them while other countries suffer.
#243 to #240 - bobsagetissocool (06/26/2012) [-]
Tell that to the animals that compete with humans. Why would god create other species which are instinctually opposed to mankind's interests in favour of their own survival if he knows it will only cause suffering to mankind?
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