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User avatar #1143 - potatopotato (04/08/2012) [-]
Ugh...Christians...Look, this is how we should be. I'm a very strong Christian, but I believe that if two men want to get married, then they should have the opportunity and right to do so. Although I don't think its right to do so, I know I am a sinner also. God gives us the right to choose and to have our own will, who are we to say how other people live their lives. From a Christian standpoint, living a homosexual life is a life of sin, but in the eyes of the lord sin is sin.....Happy Easter :)
User avatar #1164 to #1143 - Acesonnall (04/08/2012) [-]
Except if you were a Christian that actually followed Christian rules. You'd know that Jesus wasn't for gay marriage.

That being said, he didn't say go out and ridicule the gay community and hate them because God also says to show compassion and not to hate. Always show love, even to the ones you disagree with.
User avatar #1170 to #1164 - potatopotato (04/08/2012) [-]
Which is exactly what I am saying. Its not our right to ridicule people that don't live the life that we think is right because at the exact same time we have our own faults and sins.
User avatar #1172 to #1170 - Acesonnall (04/08/2012) [-]
You didn't say that.. But forget it.
User avatar #1176 to #1172 - potatopotato (04/08/2012) [-]
Ah. Well that's what I mean to portray :)
User avatar #1154 to #1143 - nichsell (04/08/2012) [-]
But here is the thing, alot of people don't see it as a sin.
User avatar #1165 to #1154 - potatopotato (04/08/2012) [-]
I mean I could only imagine someone that is gay and still goes to church just doesn't care that homosexuality is a sin rather than outright deny that it is one. But then again, I'm not gay nor have I ever asked one that proclaims to be a Christian what their standpoint is on this.
User avatar #1173 to #1165 - nichsell (04/08/2012) [-]
Well I've met a few gay people that are religious, and to them they think it's complete rubbish that it's a sin, they believe in Jesus and his teachings of love and acceptance of people. But they think that the bible are just stories to help guide people to a good way of life. To them they have been gay ever since they were born.
User avatar #1180 to #1173 - potatopotato (04/08/2012) [-]
See those things are great, but when Jesus went to tax collectors and love and accepted them, they changed their ways. They didn't keep living the same lifestyle. The church is supposed to accept all people from all walks of life and to help them leave their life of sin, and from what you're describing it seems as though a homosexual knows that Jesus loves and accepts them, but aren't fully changed by his life and acceptance. And see it can all depend on where the origin of homosexuality comes from, and whether someone can just change their beliefs. It can be dang near impossible because as you said, they have been gay from birth. Idk, I'm just trying to say that no matter what we should love and accept homosexuals and all sinners.
User avatar #1197 to #1180 - nichsell (04/08/2012) [-]
I totally agree that churches should accept everyone and everyone should be able to love and accept one-another. But don't you think it's a little hard to change who you are if you are born gay? It's in your genes, that's why I don't believe its a sin.
User avatar #1200 to #1197 - potatopotato (04/08/2012) [-]
See that's where there is a bit of grey area. Is it in our genes to lie, murder, bbe alcoholic or sin? If that's true, then could it also be said that just like homosexuality, sin is in our genes? I mean we are born into sin, just as one could be born a homosexual, or at least you could try to interpret it that way. I'm just not exactly sure on the nature of homosexuality.
User avatar #1206 to #1200 - nichsell (04/08/2012) [-]
You see people aren't born into sin, people acquire it through actions, after all how can a baby sin if all they can do is cry and eat? You are proposing that we are born evil, I see it as we are born neutral, we learn our morals through society, not just (religion). So we can't have the gene to lie, murder, and be an alcoholic these things we do to our selves. While having red hair, blue eyes or having disabilities can be inherited through our genes.

Let me enlighten you on what I know about homosexuality, and you can perceive it how it is. Homosexuality has been discovered in several hundreds of species of animals, this means that it is naturally in nature some of these animals even have life long partners like humans do. Since we are also animals we are also in this group. Homosexuality has also been in human society ever since it has started. This is a natural reacquiring process. This evidence shows that it is in our genes. Now on interpreting sin is a whole different matter, because people have different belief systems.
User avatar #1214 to #1206 - potatopotato (04/08/2012) [-]
But if that were true, then why has there not been a case, out of the billions of people that have existed, that there has not been just one person that has not sinned? Surely there has been some case in which people are totally kept from society and aren't influenced by society. Perhaps the Amish, who don't live in our society that we are aware of. Do they not sin because they don't associate themselves with our society? Well I would assume that they still do.

And yes, I know about many cases of animals that display homosexuality. However I still go back to the interpretation of homosexuality as sin, and also nature as sin. I could still say that sin has always been in society, just as homosexuality has. At the end of the day, we don't fully know what causes homosexuality. While genes may play a part of it, I'm not entirely sure that scientists have pointed specifically to a gene that "makes people become homosexual" just as genes make people have blue eyes. If I am wrong about this please let me know.
User avatar #1226 to #1214 - nichsell (04/08/2012) [-]
Well for the first paragraph, it depends on what you would consider a sin. There are lots of examples where one person thinks something is a sin, and the other person doesn't, it's whatever in your (belief system). If you consider every little thing a sin, than we are all sinners, but there has to be some things that aren't consider sins. Like the Amish, they live outside our society, but they have a society themselves they have there own rules that they follow, and their own beliefs that would be considered sins, while other people don't consider sins.

To me sin is a word that people use for immoral actions, we get our morality from our society and religion. Even though I myself don't believe in religion, I do believe in morals. but we gain our morals through our society, we learn from them. for an analogy, "if there were no laws there would be no crime." (meaning we wouldn't know the definition of a crime or sin, if we didn't make them ourselves.) <even though that could have multiple meanings. Which is why I believe we are born without sin, we just acquire it.

Now for the second paragraph, I don't believe that if a deity existed he would let homosexuality become natural, and than consider it a sin. While you may believe that homosexuality is a sin, I think not, scientists have been discovering that it may not just be a 'Gene' but it may be in our chromosomes, and our 'Genes' that play a part in it. While scientists haven't yet fully found exactly what causes it, but signs show that it is based mostly in our biology, than our environment, but our environment does play a small part into it.

User avatar #1240 to #1226 - potatopotato (04/09/2012) [-]
Christians should believe in the same actions as being sinful or not sinful. However, because we are material and emotional beings, we have trouble owning up to our own faults. People have trouble accepting their faults and admitting that they may be living a sinful life. Christians should have a common belief system, but we don't, because people are greedy. And I do believe that we are all sinners, but through Christ I can be forgiven for my sins if I truly ask for forgiveness.

Sins and immorality go hand and hand. A non religious knows that murder is wrong, stealing is bad, etc, and so does a religious person. The main difference between the two people is that a non religious person will do good just for the sake of doing good and it basically makes them feel good. A religious person will do good because it makes them feel good, and because we feel as though it pleases God to do good things. You can get your morals from society, this is proven by the fact that millions of people are athiest and are still good people, but religious people find much deeper meaning behind doing good.

If we look at actions as a whole, there are possibly 'genes' for every action, immoral or moral. There are genes that make murderers perhaps, or genes that make people become criminals just as a gene causes people to have homosexual tendencies. If that is the case, then it would mean that deity or no deity, immoral actions would be natural actions. However, from my understanding, you believe that something like murder is immoral but homosexuality is not. But if its branded into our genes, then we couldn't help it, correct? Thus should we not be held accountable for our actions, because we were born a certain way. Basically, if homosexuality is in our genes, then who is to say that there isn't a murderer gene?
User avatar #1242 to #1240 - nichsell (04/09/2012) [-]
I respect your beliefs, and to me you are correct in some ways. While all Christians should have a common belief system they don't, that's why there are so many different sects for the same religion, but they all eventually want the same goal, to please there deity, and reach eternal peace. Even though I don't believe we are BORN sinners, I can see how we can all become one very easily so I agree with you on this.
As a non-believer such as myself, I agree we do good things for the pleasure of it, and for some of us(including me) hopes it will help for the better good we still find a meaning for it.

Now this is where I kindly disagree with you. We don't have genes that causes us to be immoral these are choices that are influenced through our environment. While homosexual tendencies IF natural, I believe a deity would just see it as a natural process and not consider it EVIL or IMMORAL at all(Of course that is just my belief). While wanting to murder, or wanting to consume alcohol nonstop is caused by environmental factors and isn't there from birth. (EXCLUDING any mental illness) in which case if someone is mentally ill someone shouldn't be considered responsible for there actions(Depending on the illness of course).

Of course some of us can be naturally more aggressive(this is a chemical event that causes aggressiveness),but wanting to murder is still an outside source, it is a decision that is made. Wanting to murder or to sin isn't in our biology. While I agree we are responsible for every action in our lives, if we are MORAL we will make up for it in some way. Whether it is praying to a possible deity or making it up with your actions.

User avatar #1246 to #1242 - potatopotato (04/09/2012) [-]
Well of course not everyone has these genes, but I know there are studies of connections between murders and their genetic make ups just as there are studies of homosexuality and people's genetic makeup. Murder happens every day, and it has for thousands of years, so who is to say that it isn't natural. Someone could decide to be homosexual at age 40 just as someone could become a murderer at age 40. The same thing goes at all ages, a 4 year old could be homosexual or a murderer.

Is it so far fetched to say that a man could be hurt by a woman so much that they decide to become homosexual? I don't think that is out of the question. There are so many different cases that it is hard to make generalizations. However, lets compare something that isn't so drastic like murder. How about lust. Lust is considered to be a sin. Is lust considered natural? I would say so, because religious or non religious, everyone wants something that they don't have or wants a woman or man that they don't have. Lust could be traced to being a genetic thing in theory. But couldn't lust be controlled mentally? I could try to refrain from lusting by limiting my exposure to events and things that make me lust. The point I'm trying to make is that just because an action is natural (like you say homosexuality is), does not mean that is not controllable, and does not mean that we should not have to repent for an action that is natural. I hope I made sense. I think that we should leave it at this though, we should just agree to disagree. You made some great points: how can we be held accountable for an action that is natural? I'll definitely look into this more as I take my walk in life.
User avatar #1247 to #1246 - nichsell (04/09/2012) [-]
I can agree with you that murder has been in the human history for thousands of years. And I know there are studies that are linking murder with genetic makeup. But alot of that is do to chemical imbalances that causes rage or anger. So yes in a way that influences our choice. But this is a little extreme of an example.

But no it's not far fetched to say that a man or woman can change sexuality, but that just means they had homosexuality in them all along, which means they can swing both ways. While lust is a natural thing, we are a wanting creature, a wanting animal I can agree that lust plays a rule in our decisions. But to deny something that pure to be with someone you love regardless of gender, to me seems torturous. It all just boils down to love plain and simple, while yes you can deny your impulses if your strong enough, I wouldn't condemn or tell them it's wrong to love the same gender because it's natural. (To me this is a good natural urge, while the polar opposite of hate would be a bad natural urge.) (This is why I wouldn't consider it a sin because it's a pure form of love, nobody is getting hurt.) Of course this is all within my belief system, while you think its a sin, I don't. I can agree if you were doing something wrong you should repent.

So yes lets agree to disagree, and I must say it was fun chatting with you, and you have made some good points also. So have a great day(or night). :)
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