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Never judge a cover by its book.

Tags: dungeons | Dragons | Medusa | monster

I Anonymous ( Sat) 03: 08
This thread reminds me of ans I saw a while back. Mainly just bradistan' ning material fer making the players sad. Well, the in the campaign I' m in apparently alea saw that thread, because samething similar ta ens of
the ideas that got thrawn around ended up as a quick, ans shat encounter that we happened amass while traveling between lawns.
We were a and ran assess a pair cf statues by the read. The quailty and made it abvious that they were people whe had been prettified. Agroup of similarly equipped people a shed
distance away that their party had been attacked by a medusa and they had lest two of their number befire they fought it " We tracked the meduca ta its lair, an eld mined temple.
We found what had abviously been its hams, but w meduca. We alea didn' t find the collection of that we thoughtout weild, which meshed with what the residents of the nearby tam later told us.
They had never even heard of there being a madusa in these ruins, and had certainly never encountered ens. Only the gmap that we had run we an the read had.,
Wham did find was a large collection of letters. Apparently the medusa had started writing letters ta a man in the nearby tam. At first pretending ta be a girl whe had spurned him, than after a while as they grew elsker
she admitted whe (and even later what) she realty was., They eventually agreed ta meet.
I Anonymous ( Sat) 03: M
We aise faund a hate, addressed ta whaever might find and read it, explaining what had happened. The man had arrived at the mine at the same time anither grew was mirroring the mine, investigating meere cf a
minster hiding out there. And while the group nosing areumad in the mine didn' t find her, he did, He startled her, saw her, and tamed ta stem. The nets want an to say that she was leaving the mine ta find same way ta cure
him.
There was ens mere nets after that ens. At that point the handed each at us a piece of paper, which read:
m such a feel. Of mares a lane weman traveling the High Read weild look like an appetizing target. I got have ofthem. but I teak a bad hit Even with the supplies in my pack I don' t know if I would make it, and I lost it in
the fight. Without it I wen' t last the night.
At least I' m not aims anymore.
I' m such a feel."
After a shed while longer totalising the mine, we found s [ itsay statue of a man, leaking startled. The status had been decorated with wreathes and widowers, and curled up at the statues feet was a dead madusa.
We went back and found the grew hem the read. They asked as ivws had faund the monster. We replied thetwo had, and preceeded ta kill the let ofthem.

...

+679

Views:	33506
Favorited:	119
Submitted:	01/04/2016

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+131

#18 - iamchicken (01/04/2016) [-]

Groups face when "Did you find the monster?"

+132

#1 - StealerShock ONLINE (01/04/2016) [-]

Christ alive, I wasn't prepared for that feel...

+105

#4 - peezle (01/04/2016) [-]

#5 to #4 - selfdenyingbeggar (01/04/2016) [-]

what show is this?

+175

#7 to #5 - peezle (01/04/2016) [-]

Half-wooden chemist: sisterhood.

+44

#29 to #5 - unlithe (01/04/2016) [-]

entirely metallurgic thaumaturge: guyghetto

+22

#39 to #5 - anon (01/04/2016) [-]

Somewhat-liquid magicman: neighborhood

+21

#36 to #5 - commoncrunch (01/04/2016) [-]

semi plastic scientist: parenthood

#48 to #5 - obviousxplains (01/05/2016) [-]

empty alloy jacket: black flag

+19

#6 to #5 - fightforfate (01/04/2016) [-]

fullmetal alchemist: brotherhood

#51 to #5 - emotionexplain (01/05/2016) [-]

Darude sandstorm

#59 to #5 - Abisbowa (01/05/2016) [-]

I can't believe it's not butter.

#52 to #5 - happyunicorn (01/05/2016) [-]

battletoads

#38 to #5 - wraithguard (01/04/2016) [-]

Naruto Sphere W.

#49 to #5 - mangostormlegend has deleted their comment [-]

+75

#2 - umbrage (01/04/2016) [-]

+29

#34 - anon (01/04/2016) [-]

Boy oh boy, have I just got a fresh feel ~~repost~~ from D&D. Long read, but worth it.
If we were having a contest, i'd win

#54 to #34 - aestriel (01/05/2016) [-]

damn

#68 to #34 - thesunpraiser (01/05/2016) [-]

Holy **** I shouldn't be crying right now.

#94 to #34 - anon (01/09/2016) [-]

#62 to #34 - nathiuz (01/05/2016) [-]

#37 to #34 - azumeow (01/04/2016) [-]

Oohgie best crafty-smith...

#55 to #34 - vgmddg (01/05/2016) [-]

Definitely worth the read.

+29

#8 - thelizardlord (01/04/2016) [-]

Lordi - Would You Love A Monsterman (2006 Version)

WOULD YOU LOVE A MONSTER~~MAN~~ girl

#32 to #8 - newbtwo (01/04/2016) [-]

i remember this song from like 2351346526 years ago jesus

#63 to #8 - hiukuss (01/05/2016) [-]

>not available in your country

+20

#24 - drperzik ONLINE (01/04/2016) [-]

+51

#22 - nanako ONLINE (01/04/2016) [-]

This is bugging me.
Medusa is a specific individual. Her species are gorgons

#56 to #22 - koholla (01/05/2016) [-]

our group had an argument over this. Gorgons aren't magic like a medusa, medusa can only turn others to stone because she's so ugly (she was cursed for being vain or something like that). But yeah, medusa is just one specific gorgon, so that bugs me, but it would make sense to call a gorgon with pertrification powers a medusa, its like a nickname.

#67 to #56 - zafara (01/05/2016) [-]

In the original story Medusa was cursed because she was raped by Poseidon in the temple of Athena, because he found her too beautiful to resist. And back then it was considered a woman's fault if she was raped, and a vestal virgin having sex was an affront to Athena, so she was punished with turn-to-stone ugliness.

Now, in watered down versions/ versions for children and other reasons, the story changes that she was vain, and essentially called Athena an ugly hag in the Parthenon, resulting in the curse.

#61 to #22 - malific (01/05/2016) [-]

That's Greek mythology not tabletop gaming.

#69 to #22 - Cakenbacon [OP](01/05/2016) [-]

Gorgons in D&D are their own thing. Specifically, hate cows with a petrifying breath.
pic related

+56

#26 to #22 - JustintheWaysian ONLINE (01/04/2016) [-]

Maybe in the mythos of our world.

But in the D&D universe, a medusa is a kind of creature. In particular, a humanoid with the snake-hair, and that's it.

#9 - thechosentroll (01/04/2016) [-]

I'm no expert, but aren't revival and reversing petrification things you can do in DnD?

#10 to #9 - schneidend (01/04/2016) [-]

They are, but revival is often banned to heighten the drama of character death, and is ludicrously expensive and comes with penalties to the resurrected even if allowed.

Curing petrification is also possible, but it's not a spell available at low levels.

#12 to #9 - kasperfage (01/04/2016) [-]

revival requires that the target wants to come back, that they have something to resume living for, seeing as the man was pretty much dead in her eyes, there is a good chance that she wouldn't be able to revive

also, if you go by the book in D&D, reviving is hella expensive

+19

#13 to #12 - krobeles ONLINE (01/04/2016) [-]

"hella expensive" ...

See, this is why Pathfinder/DnD is such a ****** roleplay. Dont get me wrong, you're entirely correct, it is terribly expensive, but that shouldn't be what people think of when they consider ressurections. They should think; "This is a divine miracle only mentioned in religious texts and legends about the most awefully powerful Wizards the world has ever known. Its impossible!", not ******* ; "Its alittle on the steep side"...
Its a great game, but holy **** does it lack soul and atmosphere...

#41 to #13 - retwistfate (01/04/2016) [-]

In my d&d campaigns I allow resurrection at no cost. I also roll 2d20 without the players knowledge to see how resilient their souls are to being torn or destroyed during the jarring process of forcing a delicate soul into a dead body. They get half the number I rolled as there total amount of uhh "decent" revives for the game. But after that number is up all hell breaks loose. They have zero clue as to what soul they're bringing back into their friends body. Still his mind of course but he could have some sort of need for bloodlust or turn into some sort of sleeper agent. Once I had a paladin die while dealing the finishing blow to the bbeg to save the rest of his group. Well when they went to revive the pally the bbeg was being revived at the same time. They both failed and their souls were torn in half....and put in each other's bodies. So they came back but felt really off. The pally's god sometimes refused to talk to him. His smites would ocasionally just fizzle as if no divine powers were granted to him. But on the other side the bbeg would randomly smite someone he was attacking. His abilities would sometimes fail ect. It makes for some fun times.

#31 to #13 - grimsho (01/04/2016) [-]

The soul and atmosphere is what the DM puts into the world/setting/characters, I think.
Resurrection should be seen as pretty cheap, because it is, but the huge monetary expense prevents it from being spammed so that everyone is essentially immortal. Meanwhile, it creates an imbalance in the world as particularly well connected and wealthy aristocrats, and most importantly, most powerful villains, will have access to resurrection in one way or another. You also have to keep in mind that the majority of people in a setting aren't even getting class levels at all, let alone reaching the higher levels of Cleric or whatever else learns a Resurrection spell, so it's not like 9th level clerics are just running around every town making death a mere inconvenience.
A popular D&D webcomic, Order of the Stick, deals with this pretty well. Spoilers of course, if you care. When the party leader dies in their second encounter with the big bad due to a stupid action you'd totally believe a player would do, he ends up dead. The rest of the party is horrified at first, but quickly gets over it because they have a cleric with Resurrection in their party, so whatever, big whoop. Only problem is that they were fighting a losing battle against an invading army at the time, so retrieving the body becomes an issue, and in retrieving it the party becomes split, and the primary goal from then on out becomes trying to unite the party despite one half being out at sea and the other being underground hiding from the big bad and his armies while protecting the rotting body of their leader. So just because Resurrection exists doesn't mean all deaths, particularly of the players, are just invalid and free of tension/weight. In fact, things might have turned out better for them if the spell didn't exist, because they could have just buried their leader and continued with saving the world. The comic also deals with the fact that any non-mortals can't be revived in any way, which is an important detail for non-mortal PCs and NPCs.

#33 to #31 - krobeles ONLINE (01/04/2016) [-]

I am familliar with Order of the Stick. Good comic.
I dont agree that soul and atmosphere is entirely up to the DM. Sure, it ultimately falls on the DM to call the final shots, but that doesn't mean that the book cant provide some decent atmosphere and story hooks itself. The Pathfinder/DnD books simply dont do that at all, far as I've seen. Probably some campaign and setting books has that stuff in it, but I dont think it would be entirely relegated to a series of books the majority of players likely wont buy.

The fact that "the majority of people in a setting aren't even getting class levels at all" is an assumed part of the system, is actually another major grievance that I have with the Pathfinder/DnD system.

The problem with the entire resurrection thing, isn't so much that it doesn't have mechanical stopping blocks to it mechanically, but rather that prospect of calling people back from the dead would entirely shift how everyone in the entire world views death and in turn, how they view life. Even if it is sorta majorly complicated, the fact that it can be done, would have tremendous, neigh incomprehensible social consequences for every society in the entire world, but in the Pathfinder/DnD system (and setting, strangely enough) its barely given any kind of attention what-so-ever. People are kinda just "meh" about the whole thing.

Thats what I mean when I say it lacks atmosphere. The system should acknowledge which of its magical elements would have world-sweeping consequences for how we view existance as a whole, and atleast do a tiny bit to discuss some of these things, to let the setting come to life and provide ideas for stories and how to use the system. Ideally, what you wanna do, is look at the mechanical systems (dice rolls, character classes, saves, and so on) as tools. Tools with which you build a story. The rest of the book then, should essentially be viewed as an intructions guide, of what you can potentially build with those tools, sorta like how the old Lego toys used to provide you alot of parts, an instructions manual, and a few suggestions for other things you could make out of those same lego parts. The way I see it, Pathfinder/DnD is a Lego toy, without the instructions manual.

#44 to #33 - schneidend (01/05/2016) [-]

I think a lot of setting books and campaign guides address this exact sort of thing, the impact of magic on culture and such. But, that's where such info belongs, in the hands of setting writers and the DMs. The Player's Handbook is there to tell us what the spell does, not tell us what cultural effect it has had on Golarion or Faerun.

#70 to #44 - krobeles ONLINE (01/05/2016) [-]

I dont agree. A player has to make a character equally as much as the storyteller does and that character has to both be one of the most interesting characters in the story, as well as fit into the setting. If all such information is relegated to books the player isn't likely to have acess to, the PC is likely to not fullfill either of these things as well as the NPCs that the storyteller creates. Do you really want that? For the NPCs to be far more interesting and fitting to the story, than the PCs?

The atmosphere and part of the setting, can easily be woven into the mechanical crunch of the thing, in a way that makes the mechanics more memorable and interesting, without being intrusive. Of course the setting should also have its own section, but the two dont need - and in fact, shouldn't - be entirely divorced from one another.

#71 to #70 - ninjaroo ONLINE (01/05/2016) [-]

Every DM I've had created their own world, at best taking elements from the books. That's what I've always thought they were for, inspiration, rather than adoption.

#72 to #71 - krobeles ONLINE (01/05/2016) [-]

Sure, but as it stands, Pathfinder/DnD barely gives you anything to be inspired by.
Theres no atmosphere in the books. Its just a bunch of mechanical crunch. Its a mighty fine bunch of mechanics, but thats all it is. A bunch of tools and parts you can use to make something yourself. Kinda like the Level Creators that some computer games comes with.

#73 to #72 - ninjaroo ONLINE (01/05/2016) [-]

You realize there's like, novels, right? Produced by Wizards of the Coast? Incredibly in depth lore to the origin and history of essentially everything?

#74 to #73 - krobeles ONLINE (01/05/2016) [-]

I do. Have you read any of them? I sure haven't and neither have anyone in my group, nor indeed anyone I ever talked to.
As I said elsewhere, essential parts of the setting, the entirety of the lore, shouldn't be relegated to books that the average player is unlikely to ever see. That would be like having literally no spoken dialogue in a game like Skyrim, and instead relying on the player to pick up and read those books thats shattered around, if they wanna follow the story or understand the setting. Sure, they have the option of doing that, but how many people do you think would realistically do that?

#75 to #74 - ninjaroo ONLINE (01/05/2016) [-]

All I'm hearing is "I'm unwilling to look in to the lore so it basically doesn't exist"

#76 to #75 - krobeles ONLINE (01/05/2016) [-]

Fine. If thats what you wanna hear, go ahead and delude yourself. It isn't what I said, but if thats what you desire to understand, then you're very welcome to misinterprid what I said. You being unwilling to acknowledge - or even adequately understand - my position, does not invalidate it.

If I've misinterprited you, and this isn't just a snide attempt at being a cheeky cock, then I'll gladly explain my position in more detail.

#77 to #76 - ninjaroo ONLINE (01/05/2016) [-]

I wasn't being a cheeky cock. You're complaining that the crunch books don't contain fluff and dismiss the fluff books as unnecessary, but somehow this is someone elses fault.

#78 to #77 - krobeles ONLINE (01/05/2016) [-]

Did I ever use the word "unnecessary"? No, I did not. I dont think they're unnecessary, dont put words in my mouth.
I said that the average player is unlikely to ever read them. Not only because these books are rather expensive, but also because the majority of players are only tangentially interested in things that needn't nessesarily have a direct impact on their characters. As with my example of Skyrim, just because players have the option of seeking out this additional lore of their own volition, it doesn't excuse its complete absence from the core books.

#80 to #70 - schneidend (01/05/2016) [-]

Players aren't disallowed from looking at setting materials. As long as they're not looking at the stat blocks for major NPC villains too closely, in the even I might use them, they can look at whatever they want. I almost never use an entire adventure path or campaign as written, and instead write my own. I work with players, and encourage them to write backstories that tie them to the setting I can use.

Regardless, when I say the Player's Handbook is not meant to cover the cultural impact of magic, I mean that is because the PHB is meant to be setting-neutral. It's the baseline abilities and spells the players have access to, so including a ton of setting info in there would largely be pointless, as it would go unused in many cases. The campaign I'm currently running in Pathfinder rules is set in the Forgotten Realms, not Golarion, so Paizo's setting info is largely useless.

Of course, I also ban resurrection magic from being used by mere mortals in the first place. Such things are the purview of djinn, devils, angels, and gods. The FR novels, even ones about extremely powerful Clerics, completely discount resurrecting characters with divine magic as an option, so I do the same.

#81 to #80 - krobeles ONLINE (01/05/2016) [-]

I didn't say the players were disallowed, I said they are unlikely to. Most people dont even buy the setting books.
As somebody who has played both World of Darkness and Shadowrun to a reasonable extend, I can tell you with 100% certainty that it wouldn't be pointless to include the atmosphere and setting in the core books. Even if you wont use most - if any - of it, it provides some immensely good ideas and gets you into the proper mindset for the game.

#82 to #81 - schneidend (01/05/2016) [-]

Shadowrun is a setting and rules system in one, they're meant to go hand in hand. The setting and rules are included in the same book. That's fine. That's not how D&D is structured. D&D is a general rules system that is then used or amended for the purposes of simulating a setting.

What I've done is set my campaign in a specific world and provided details about that world. I don't need the Pathfinder SRD or Player's Handbook to do that.

#83 to #82 - krobeles ONLINE (01/05/2016) [-]

Yes, precisely! Pathfinder/DnD is literally nothing but a soulless heap of mechanics, which is simultaneously what makes it such a great game and such a ****** roleplay.
That was literally my one and only point, from the very beginning...

#84 to #83 - schneidend (01/05/2016) [-]

I'm inclined to disagree. Mechanics and setting don't have to be intertwined in the handbook for the game to provide good opportunities for roleplay. Though, it is nice to have flavor text, which Pathfinder provides in abundance. Is a game really soulless if it gives me the tools I need to create a tricky scoundrel who fights dirty, both in flavor and mechanically, and has a prestige class that emulates the training of an assassin which I can then tie to an assassin's guild in the setting in which I'm playing as part of the character's backstory of an old, pragmatic hired killer seeking redemption for his callous life and on the run from the guild? I don't need the Player's Handbook to tell me how to create an interesting character, nor do I need the Dungeon Master's Guide to tell me how to tell an interesting story, though DMGs often have very handy advice for storytelling and rules arbitration in general. I establish that the guy fights dirty to give himself opportunities to shank ************* , take feats that support this like Dirty Fighter and Improved Dirty Trick, and play him like some kind of fantasy version of Liam Neeson in Taken. Knowing that he's an assassin for the Shadow Thieves of Amn isn't really necessary to make that character a fun character to play or roleplay. Telling the DM he's trying to quit the business does help create plot hooks. But, again, it could work in just about any setting with an organization that has assassins.

Roleplay isn't even really about having a backstory intrinsically tied to the setting, though that can certainly help. Adventurers often defy the norms of the societies that birth them, are often divorced or otherwise exiled from mainstream society, and have a subculture of their own comprised of reckless, crazy folks who delve into forgotten ruins. Roleplaying D&D is about telling a story, which I can easily do just knowing that my character is a barbarian estranged from his clan who lived in the wild as a savage and learned to wrestle wolves and bears with his bare hands, who also has a strange affinity with spirits of ice and will eventually take the Frostrager prestige class. I can play that character day-to-day and make him this really strong, dumb teenager who doesn't really understand civilization but kinda likes all the amenities thereof, and make his background, the whos and wheres of it all, largely secondary to roleplaying his character.

Recently, my campaign had a player's character die. This is a party that is really close, they've been through thick-and-thin and own an inn/keep together. A funeral was held, and several characters, both PC and NPC, gave eulogies. The Barbarian kid I mentioned above, who follows the party on their adventures, was openly weeping. We at the table were all tearing up a little. We didn't need the PHB to have a ton of setting details for that to happen.

In a Dresden Files FATE game where I was a player, the handbook does include setting information, but mostly in a general sense that establishes what fey are and such, but most of the meat and potatoes of the setting is going to come from the Dresden Files novels. I made a character that was a half-fey, a changeling, which I already knew existed from one of the novels, and my GM and I worked out that frost giants were a kind of unseelie fey, so he was half frost giant. Anyway, after a whole, big thing where he had to duel a fire giant changeling for the sake of his family's honor, while he was distracted fighting this guy some black court vampires showed up en masse and the party's Warden (a wizard who polices magic) had to sacrifice himself to do a big spell powerful enough to kill all of the vampires at the same time. My character was pissed that he couldn't help save his friend because of his family's ******** , so he made the Choice to become fully human and walked away. It was pretty powerful. (Cont.)

#85 to #84 - schneidend (01/05/2016) [-]

But, was it more powerful than the scene from the campaign where the rules are largely divorced from setting details? Hardly. Even if the Pathfinder or 3.5 PHBs had setting details, neither of their core settings are Forgotten Realms, so they would be pretty much useless for my campaign, anyway. The soul is invested in a game by the players and the GM, and to a much lesser extent by the setting in which the campaign takes place.

#86 to #85 - krobeles ONLINE (01/05/2016) [-]

So effectively, what you're saying is, that having a level creator included in your game, justifies the actual game itself being somewhat vapid? Because thats what I'm hearing. All the cool **** you just mentioned above, is something you and your mates made up wholecloth. The book did nothing for that. That situation is entirely equivalent to somebody making a marvelous mod for a game, useing the included software, and then somebody else goes and praises the game for its merits based on experiences with that mod. You abselutely cannot use those experiences as evidence. I'm a rather creative individual. I could come up with a compelling story useing nothing but a blank sheet of paper and a pen. I could also run that story as a roleplay, useing ad-hoc systems which I also create entirely useing this blank paper and pen. Should I now use that, to assert that this blank paper and pen facilitates immersive roleplay equally as much as a game like Shadowrun?
No. No I should not. My immersion and/or enjoyment of the story I create useing the paper and pen, is entirely divorced from that paper and pen. It did it help me in any way, acting only as the medium with which I express that story. Pathfinder/DnD has the precisely same role here as that paper and pen. It did not in any way help you shape your creative stories, unless you used some of the additional material, to which the lore is relegated.
A sufficiently creative individual will be able to create immersive stories ex nihilo, the atmosphere isn't there to help out the immensely creative. Its there to help out the less creative, and also to make reading the book feel less like reading a maths textbook and more like being actually immersed in a roleplay. I never read through the book start to finnish, because its not very entertaining to do. The book is simply too dry for that.

#87 to #86 - schneidend (01/05/2016) [-]

So, in other words, you don't need the game books to tell you how to have a good time and construct a narrative. You can easily do that yourself. Hence, I don't need that to be in the Player's Handbook or DMG.
I'm not saying books that include setting details are bad, or that the handbook helped me create the funeral scenario. What I am saying is that the players and GM can work together to make the game a narrative experience. The rules just help arbitrate success and failure in adventure or combat scenarios. Yeah, Shadowrun and many other games exist where the handbooks are rife with setting details and such, but those games are often written with that synergy in mind, and don't have multiple settings that the rules could feasibly be used for. D&D wasn't built that way, but that doesn't make it a " ****** roleplay." They give you the rules so you don't have to read the book all the way through. Less time reading, more time creating and playing. Different strokes for different folks.

#88 to #87 - krobeles ONLINE (01/05/2016) [-]

So essentially, your arguement is, that you'de rather fill in that blank entirely yourself, rather than have the developers do so for you? I mean, I dont think thats a bad arguement per-se, but it just seems a bit dodgey that you'de want to allow the game to have this flaw, just to make up for it yourself. But sure, I can see a certain merit to it. My point just is, that that fundamentally and inevitably, will lead to creating less evocative mechanics. The more broad you make your focus, the less interesting and evocative you need to make your mechanics as a result, is basically my arguement.

What we've been debating here isn't my sole reason for saying that Pathfinder/DnD is a ****** roleplay. Theres a bunch of things. Another very key aspect of the game, that just abselutely ruins it for me, in terms of roleplay, is that ******* leveling system.
My character wants to become a stronger person, he lifts weights for 7 months. Does it at all effect my strength? Nop! My character wants to become smarter, maybe get a bachelors degree, he enrolls in a university for a year. Does it effect my ranks in skills? Nop! How do I accomplish these things? I go out and kill 7 ******* Kobolds, and gain level 4...
And then theres the ******* combat system. "Ok, we're clearly outmatched, we need to fight dirty! I wanna beg the wizard for mercy, and when he least expects it, stab him right in his soft wizard heart, right through his soft wizard robes!". Can I do that? The first part, yes, the second part, **** No , because despite being a frail old idiot, protected by nothing but cloth, the dude is still level 10 and has like 50 HP atleast which I'm not gonna be able to 1-hit, despite doing something that should realistically murder his ass. And come to think of it, I cant even say "I wanna stab him in the heart", because targetet attacks aren't part of the ******* core system!

I know I've complained alot about Pathfinder/DnD in this thread, but honestly, its mostly because people praise it so much around here recently, seemingly unaware of where the game falls critically short. I still think its a fine game, but if you want to roleplay, you're honestly better off useing my aformentioned example with a paper and a pen...

#90 to #88 - schneidend (01/06/2016) [-]

Or, if you legitimately catch a villain so completely off-guard, and your DM is cool like me, maybe you get a coup de grace even though he's not technically helpless, or just says the ******* buckles over and dies when you gut him with your dagger or sword.

Trouble is, no Wizard you'd actually have any beef with would be likely to fall for something like that dumb and transparent without you spending a lot of time earning his trust or just killing him in his sleep. If he's level 10, he's probably had people (or things) try to kill him before. He has some knowledge, a little luck, and some grit from being so experienced, to be able to avoid blows that might otherwise kill him, which is what HP represents and not how much blood or meat is in your body. When you get hit for 49 out of your 50 HP, you didn't necessarily get impaled and miraculously survived. You probably took a bad hit to the shoulder that means the next hit is invariably going to be either entirely fatal, or enough to break through your defenses and inner reserves to knock you the **** out.

#89 to #88 - schneidend (01/06/2016) [-]

Well, yeah. I want to have a bevvy of flavorful mechanics I can fit into my world or another world, without having to worry about re-flavoring a lot of setting-specific things like prestige classes that are built around specific things in a specific setting. When I want to have that, I'll look it up in a book or a wiki or read a novel about it. Again, I rarely use the generic setting. I didn't use Core 4E for 4E, and I don't use Golarion for Pathfinder. In my Star Wars Saga Edition game, I used a Star Wars era not strictly covered in the books, that of the Old Republic MMO. SWSE has a lot of flavorful, setting-appropriate suggestions and descriptions, but it is likewise aware that its setting is variable, that there's many eras of Star Wars you could set your campaign in. Hell, some folks made a hack where they modified the SWSE rules to emulate ******* Mass Effect. A book doesn't need setting materials to make a suite of mechanics exciting or cool. Established setting details are, like everything else a publisher puts out, guidelines to help you along, not necessarily required reading.

Anyway, if a character lifts weights for 7 months, or a character goes to school and learns a great deal and takes on challenging research projects, they would both gain XP as long as they were challenged and they somehow overcame those challenges. There's tons of high-level Wizards out there who never went on a single adventure in their lives. Thing is, having your mind and body tested by gauntlets of traps, hordes of monsters, and the plots of villains is much more challenging and therefore much more rewarding. Also, the game assumes you're doing things like studying and training in your down time to sort of crystallize what you've learned and discover how to apply it. But, yeah, if you pull a Goku/Vegeta and just work out in a really dangerous way for a while and survive, you could probably level up eventually. But, nobody else at the table likely wants to do that. Unless roleplay or something else story-related is going to happen, why would you even WANT the ability to sit at home and work out? That's not cool or heroic, and it's not a story unless somebody talks to you while you're working out or you internally monologue and your character develops. The game just assumes your character knows how to train her body in her off-hours and that you do so to keep in adventuring shape.

As for the level 10 Wizard, well, it'd be supremely difficult to ever convince him you genuinely wanted to give up and then hang out afterwards, but let's say you did. He's a powerful Wizard, and can therefore probably prepare an Extended Mage Armor for the day, giving him the invisible equivalent of a chain shirt for a duration of 20 hours. He also likely has a Ring of Protection and possibly an Amulet of Natural Armor to further increase his AC. Even if you take him by surprise, taking his Dexterity out of the equation, he's basically wearing the equivalent of a non-magical suit of plate mail or better. That's not even taking into account the other spells he probably cast to defend himself either before you arrived or while you were talking and begging for your lives. So, even if you pulled this whole thing off, you might not actually hit him. But, let's say you did. He's denied his Dexterity to AC, so if you're a Rogue you can Sneak Attack him, if you're a high Strength warrior of some kind you can Power Attack and still hit even at a large penalty. If you're a Cleric you might cast say Slay Living and get something like 12d6+7 damage on a touch attack that would ignore all but that Ring of Protection. If your group is using the massive damage rules and anybody hits the Wizard for at least 50 damage, he has to make a Fortitude save or die. If not, and you've gained his trust so thoroughly, you could wait until he goes to sleep and coup de grace him for an automatic critical hit that he has to roll a very high Fortitude save against or die.

#91 to #89 - krobeles ONLINE (01/06/2016) [-]

Again, you're effective trying to come up with a bunch of patchwork, in order to make the system work. Nowhere in the books does it say study and training will increase your level, and why would that even make sense? So because I studied physics for three years, that qualifies me for a level in Wizard? For the extra health and feat, too? Where the hell did that come from? Useing the level system as it is, barely makes any sense, but rewarding experience for study barely does either. Its a stunted and very gamey system, that does serve to make the game more fun, but simultaneously more unrealistic and a worse roleplay.
Same can be said for your example with the Wizard. Nowhere does it say that I am allowed those automatic crits or coup de grace, so you're effectively trying to patchwork on a system that fundamentally ignores the realism of being stabbed. Even your example of "wait untill he sleeps" is an unrealistic ******** . Say he sleeps, and I somehow manage to sneak up on him. I'm a level 1 peasant, with a really ****** 1d4 dagger. I slit his throat. I'll be doing around 8 damage, if I'm lucky. He is very likely to still make that fortitude save, so he just survived being stabbed in the throat in his ******* sleep. Realism! Roleplay! Immersion...! GONE!
Still explain to me, how his experiences with taking a blow will going help him not die from being murdered in his sleep, because the only logical conclusion, is that HP is abselutely how much meat and blood is in your body...
I know that as the system is written, thats not what it is, but these coup de grace rules are in direct conflict with how HP is otherwise repressented...

#92 to #91 - schneidend (01/06/2016) [-]

You can gain XP without fighting kobolds, because you don't even necessarily have to kill kobolds to gain the XP they're worth. You gain XP by overcoming challenges in some way, such as simply avoiding them through stealth and proceeding on with the dungeon. That's simply a fact of the system. You can be a level 2 Commoner who does nothing but farm, earning XP by overcoming the challenges of being a farmer, like working hard all year and bartering to get a good price for your crops. There's level 5+ Wizard NPCs who've never gone on a single adventure in their lives, but over time their studies and successful experiments earned them enough XP to get to that level. Extra Hit Points (again, not really "health") and extra feats or class features represent you putting together what you learned. You got a little luckier, a little more skilled at avoiding perils like exploding potions, particularly difficult and volatile magical item crafting, or called creatures that got a bit rowdy. Hence, more HP. You figured out some more arcane tricks and took Empowered Spell, or learned to be a little more diplomatic and intimidating when speaking with your apprentices and took Persuasive, etc.

Unless the Wizard is wearing his Cloak of Resistance +3 to bed, which would be very uncomfortable, he's looking at a base Fortitude save of +3. Maybe he's got a 12 Constitution and has a total of +4 Fort. With 8 damage, he's staring at a daunting DC 18 Fort save or die, a less than . If he rolls high, he lives, and either awoke and moved with startling swiftness to avoid the brunt of the slash, or is gripping his throat to staunch the bleeding of the bad but not mortal gash in his throat, and has time to take a turn and get the healing potion he keeps under the pillow he doesn't use and drink it. That's not even DM fiat or rules fudging. If something isn't killing you, your body is more or less whole. If you have 20 HP and somebody hits you for 21 with a greatsword, unless your Constitution is 1 that sword did not just cut off your arm or head, though you are bleeding out your life blood because you're at negative HP and therefore considered dying.

Anyway, in the end, the rules are merely guidelines, and are intended only to provide arbitration of the zany shenanigans magical weirdos get up to. The books encourage DMs to bend and break these guidelines as they see fit. Maybe the reason that Wizard grabbed a healing potion instead of simply vaporizing his attacker is because I, the DM, decided that his neck is literally split open and he's taking bleed damage every round. But, hell, this ******* peasant somehow got through every single trap and ward the Wizard had in place to prevent this very situation. Maybe he just deserves to auto-fail that save because one of my crazy-ass players rolled a really lucky peasant.

#93 to #92 - schneidend (01/06/2016) [-]

*DC 18 Fort save or die, a less than 35% chance of success.

#16 to #13 - the fuzzball (01/04/2016) [-]

reincarnate is a 4th lvl druid spell, only takes 1000 gold and its the same as one of the normal expensive resurrections, only downside is you can't control what you come back as....because its reincarnation and not actually resurrection.

#20 to #16 - krobeles ONLINE (01/04/2016) [-]

Well, for one, it doesn't recall the entirety of its previous life and its a different race. So for all the characters know, it might not even be the same person. It might just be some wierd freak, created by nature which has the memories of your dead friend. You cant really tell...
Secondly, that still requires a level 7 Druid, which is still tremendously powerful by average-joe standards. There isn't gonna be a level 7 Druid hanging out in every city, nor indeed every country. Finding one might be a quest in itself.

#47 to #20 - the fuzzball (01/05/2016) [-]

yea, its not the most common thing in the world and it has big downsides, its not true ressurection by any means but gameplay wise it's an interesting and depending on the party, a relativity easy way to get a player to keep his character albeit a bit wonked so to speak.

#14 to #13 - shigiddy (01/04/2016) [-]

I think the idea is to make it mechanically expensive in order to justify having it be so rare lore-wise. Like, if all it took was a simple high-level spell to ressurect someone, there would be no meaning to character death, and you'd have people saying "I'll just suicide into the group and you can rez me." By making it expensive gameplay wise, death is actually a real threat to players, and they have to play cautiously.

#15 to #14 - krobeles ONLINE (01/04/2016) [-]

Or they could just not be ****** roleplayers and play properly? Even if they can just be resurrected, death still hurts like hell and is probably ******* uncomftable. You'de have to be some sort of crazy lunatic not to want to avoid that at any cost, even if you can technically be brought back. If the players aren't doing that, they aren't roleplaying well enough or its part of their character concept that their ******* nuts. Dont get me wrong, I'm not argueing against it being expensive, it abselutely should be, but having it be expensive so is no excuse for having the text in the book pressent so flat and boring.

#17 to #15 - samlease (01/04/2016) [-]

"death... probably ******* uncomftable"
– krobeles

#19 to #17 - krobeles ONLINE (01/04/2016) [-]

Well, I mean, I haven't tried it, so I wouldn't know...

#21 to #15 - sephirothpwnz (01/04/2016) [-]

>they could just not be ****** role-players
expecting players to not try to game a system.... you clearly haven't dm'd (if at all) for long. don't trust your players, they can and will exploit you.

#23 to #21 - krobeles ONLINE (01/04/2016) [-]

I've actually been running games on and off for several years, and started my first serious, long-running game last year. That game has a build-in auto-resurrection as a passive mechanic.
The difference is, my players aren't there to "game the system". They're there to roleplay. If you and your friends enjoy sitting around and "gameing the system", then go nuts. More power to you. Its just not something that my group does, and I would consider it a sign of bad roleplay if any of them did.

I'm not really surprised that you say that though, because many groups has an intensely antagonistic relationship between their storytellers and players. I never really understood it, and I dont think any of my players did either.

#25 to #23 - neverborn (01/04/2016) [-]

Cost is just a mechanical way of stopping you from declaring death meaningless and going murderhobo on every threat you hear about, how you roleplay the cost is up to the players and DM.
It could indeed be the stuff of legends, the domain of miracles and wishes used only by gods and godlings who require an offering to raise a fallen hero;
maybe it's a forgotten art, only the most reclusive of healers and sages able to provide such a service are hard to track and harder to gain audience with;
maybe there's consequences to coming back from the dead, the living once thought to defeat death with ground diamonds, magic and the favour of the gods, but they learned better than to toy with life when death came calling for what it was owed and charging interest.

doesn't have to come down purely to the numbers, roleplaying game rarely are.

#27 to #23 - sephirothpwnz (01/04/2016) [-]

wish I had your group, instead of roleplaying my entire selection pool of people are all THAT GUY's

#35 to #27 - krobeles ONLINE (01/04/2016) [-]

I play with a bunch of different groups.
One group I play with, is extreamly munchkinney and very very gamey, another is almost the anthesis of that, with most of us prefering to solve problems in non-violent ways.
Its almost the difference between something like Dragonball and Steven Universe/Gravity Falls. Sure, all three of those have action elements and a good deal of the story is predicated on violent conflict, but we can both agree that the thrust of interest of Dragonball is starkly different than Steven Universe or Gravity Falls.

I honestly like both of them alot, the munchkinness just kinda grinds on me occationally.
The games I run, I try to have the major emphasis be a sense of free flowing sand boxiness. That way, the players can sorta peruse the setting, see whats going on at the moment, and decide from there which stories they want to persue. One of the first stories involved helping the ghost of a girl who had been violently beaten and raped, find rest. That culminated in a sorta touching scene, involving what was essentially a post-burial wake for the girl.
The most recently concluded (sort of) story, involved them uncovering that an abortion doctor had been stealing and sacrificing the souls of late-term fetuses, to barter away to an archfiend named Adramelech. That ended up with the occultist and his two pet demons being murdered, which is likely to draw the ire of the infernal order he belonged to.
The next story will likely involve another ghost the party ran across, which is pretty lucid, but wants a new body to inhabit. They'll likely try to steal the body of a comatose patient, the upstanding citizens that they are...
The point is, it occilates back and forth between more down to earth, personal and somewhat emotional stories and full-on "We're fighing demons from hell" munchkinney stuff. I like it that way and since my party has themselves chosen which stories to follow and which to ignore, I suspect that they do too.

#11 to #9 - psychologyxplain (01/04/2016) [-]

True Resurrection costs 20000 gp, as it requires Diamond Dust. The petrification is easier to get rid of (Mechanically) but it's dependent on the setting the DM has decided on

+14

#28 - DrollHumor (01/04/2016) [-]

#3 - thesunpraiser (01/04/2016) [-]

Jesus Christ. Shed a tear.

#30 - funpunk (01/04/2016) [-]

GIF

I've always wanted to try D&D, these stories make it seem fun as **** . A friend of mine wanted to start a Call of Cthulhu campaign, but it just wouldn't be the same.

#60 to #30 - malific (01/05/2016) [-]

roll20.net

#45 to #30 - magicmatchsticks (01/05/2016) [-]

I love D&D with all my heart. See if you can find people who can play on the internet, on FJ I occasionally hear about people who use roll20 for that.

#57 - brothergrimm (01/05/2016) [-]

This ****** me up inside..... and I agree with the player, I would have massacred that group.

#42 - theblargypargler (01/04/2016) [-]

Kind of dickish to kill the group, though. When you see a medusa it would make sense that you'd attack it.

#50 - pornmanoneofour (01/05/2016) [-]

I re read it... I didn't get it the first time. And I get the twist about who's the true monster... ish... But it keeps going over my head. Help please?

tl;dr explain im retarded

#53 to #50 - ifreakinglovepizza (01/05/2016) [-]

the group who sent them on the quest were the guys who ambushed the medusa and caused her to die thereby eliminating her chances of saving the man she loved. she petrified 2 of the ambushers in self defence and also petrified the man she loved won accident when she was startled by him. everyone loses...

#79 to #53 - pornmanoneofour (01/05/2016) [-]

Okay makes sense. But umm. being neurotic me. Questions! (But thanks for everything.)

1. How did she get the dude's digits for mailing him??? And why a woman who spurrned him??

2. Why did the first group investigate the ruins with rumors if the towns people said they never suspected medusa.

3. What supplies is she referencing? Food? Magic healing apple???

#46 - beasert (01/05/2016) [-]

I DM'd a short Pathfinder campaign I wrote. At one point, a townsfolk's wife was kidnapped while the PC's were out investigating an ogre cave. They tracked the kidnappers to a huge church to Asmodeus and sneaked inside. After a while they found her, but she was being treated as a guest of honour as the church considered her a reincarnation of one of their saints.
The party fled as guards closed in, and regrouped to crash a ceremony to be held later that day. They fought through a horde of worshipers, were smacked around by the high priest, blinded and set on fire. It was a fun fight. Most importantly, though, they failed to rescue the wife in time.
A fully grown teifling clawed its way out of her, killing the wife, before collapsing from exhaustion. The priest was defeated at this point, so one of the PC's who weren't stumbling around blind or putting their selves out stepped up to the alter to kill the helpless creature.
Then he found out it was female and he changed his tune. (Exactly as planned)
When the teifling woke up, she seemed nice so they brought her back to their town and said mission accomplished. Then she raised the entire graveyard and disappeared into the woods.
<----Pictured: a face you can trust.

#58 - rokulda (01/05/2016) [-]

TL;DR please? The ending confuses my simple brain

#65 to #58 - weskerwesker (01/05/2016) [-]

Not writers party finds Medusa, Hurr durr its a monster, kill it, they slice it, she turns 2 to stone to protect herself and runs away, writers party finds out she accidentally turned a man she loved to stone and tried to find a cure, but found other party and died at her lovers feet about it.

#66 to #65 - rokulda (01/05/2016) [-]

#40 - ompalomper (01/04/2016) [-]

this is why we can't have nice things.

why must DM's be so bloody ******* cruel. i would have had the girl weak and dying but savable or at the very least rolled for her still being alive.