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User avatar #15 - realreality (11/12/2013) [-]
Man I really despise Robert Baratheon, Raeghar was cool and also was in love with Lyanna stark and she with him but no Bobby boy had to be all butt hurt over being friend zoned that he killed Raeghar, ******* idiot. No wonder Cersie fell out of love with him so easily. Fat Piece of **** .
User avatar #39 to #15 - achillesengland (11/12/2013) [-]
**** you, Robert was a ******* badass. Rhaegar got what was coming to him for being a whiny emo piece of **** who likes to break the rules because he's the crown prince. That ****** should of learnt to respect betrothals, but he didn't so he got ****** up.
#46 to #39 - herpderpstrom (11/12/2013) [-]
Even good guys seem to have a hard time respecting betrothals. Robert's intentions were good, but the cause and effect in this story were both pretty tragic.
User avatar #70 to #46 - trystanvierra (11/13/2013) [-]
GAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH THE RED WEDDING!!! It pissed me the **** off, man...

P.S. save Theon...
User avatar #71 to #70 - trystanvierra (11/13/2013) [-]
I know he dies... But whatever...
User avatar #79 to #71 - herpderpstrom (11/13/2013) [-]
Not sure if DwD spoiler for you, but Theon is still alive after the latest book.
#44 to #39 - realreality (11/12/2013) [-]
No **** you, Bobby Boy couldn't handle a maiden like Lyanna and you just know that she only agreed to the union because of family pressure. Lyanna loved Rhaegar and was with his child. Then that idiot decided to go to war even though he was a boot licking neckbeard before all that happened and without the Stark's and Tywin Lannister's help wouldn't have been able to conquer **** . Rhaegar was a total badass with the sword and shield, far superior to bobby boy and his hammer. If we examine the battle of the trident carefully we can safely say that Rhaegar had easily wounded Robert but because of them being in the river he may have slipped which might have been why bobby boy the coward took advantage of the situation and struck a fatal blow. It was only because of dumb luck that Robert was able to defeat the future king of Westeros. You wanna worship a fatass Deer go ahead I got my Dragon's back.
Honestly I understand that you have an opinion but I love the fact that you're as passionate about this as I am...
User avatar #84 to #44 - achillesengland (11/13/2013) [-]
And thankyou, it is very rare that I find someone who is as passionate and well read through these books as I am.
User avatar #83 to #44 - achillesengland (11/13/2013) [-]
Not true, Robert would have won the war regardless of Tywin's help, but King's Landing would be burnt to the ground. Rhaegar was described as a skilled swordsman, but he was not the greatest, whilst Robert Baratheon was described as one of the greatest warriors of his time due to his great strength and stature, this was a battle the dragon could not win through shock and awe. As the Wolf and Stag proved that there is no better combination.
User avatar #85 to #83 - realreality (11/14/2013) [-]
Robert's rebellion only had feet because of the Lannisters and Starks and though it is true that the Mad King would've ended up burning everything, it would've struck a massive blow to Robert's rebellion as well, which then would've created a kingdom so weak that it could've been taken over by any house at any time. So you see Robert needed the help.
I guess it's one of those things you just have to agree to disagree on. I still think that the
The Dragon was the better warrior because even though Robert Baratheon was well known through out the land as one of the greatest warriors, it was arrogance that claimed fame not talent. Lord Selmy and Ned Stark were far better warriors but just didn't boast about their skill with the sword, as great swordsmen never do. I would go far as to say that even Jaime Lannister would give old Bob a run for his money but that's just my perspective.
You're welcome. What is man without passion but an empty vessel?
User avatar #87 to #85 - achillesengland (11/14/2013) [-]
Ned Stark was described as an average warrior, in the show he was made out to be a great warrior but it isn't canon. Also Jaime Lannister is one of the greatest warriors in the world, but even so, in a battle situation, Robert Baratheon would kill him, the warhammer is the greatest battlefield weapon, you just have to be strong enough to wield it.

And even with King's Landing burnt to the ground the kingdom still would have run but the economy would probably be **** and Oldtown would become Westeros' main source of income and visitors.
User avatar #88 to #87 - realreality (11/14/2013) [-]
Like I said boasting is why Robert was considered to be one of the greatest not because he really was and as far as Ned Stark being an average warrior is concerned, he was humble in his ability and did not kill for glory but out of duty. Surely you wouldn't put Roberts ability as a warrior above that of Lord Selmy. Now if we can assume that Lord Selmy was the tutor for both Jaime and Rhaegar and Jaime was an exceptional talent and keeping in mind Rhaegar's talent to learn quickly we can safely say that Rhaegar's talent for killing if not better was matched to that of Robert Baratheon (or what they say of him). Plus you don't have to be strong to wield a war hammer you just have to have a big, by that I mean Ned Stark's was quite a big guy but because of his skill he used a sword that was suited to his physical structure (Ice), Robert on the other hand was a big guy but lacked the finesse to wield a sword therefore he used the hammer. I'm just saying.
User avatar #89 to #88 - achillesengland (11/14/2013) [-]
Selmy trained neither Jaime nor Rhaegar, that would have been the master-at-arms at Casterly Rock and Dragonstone respectively. And it is doubted whether Eddard actually used Ice in battle or if he used it for ceremony such as beheadings as Ice is taller than 6 feet and would be very unwieldy in battle especially for someone not particuarly described as large or strong.. Robert came forma line of large and strong men so it makes sense for him to use a warhammer as they are the best weapons for smashing and denting armor as opposed to looking for chinks in armour. And therefore Robert would have had the upper hand, he was likely interested in warfare and martial combat from a young age and trained form as soon as he could whereas Rhaegar had no interest until he read something that changed his perspective and on top of this is Robert's stature and weapon of choice which gives him a significant upper hand in a fight, which is likely why he won, just a better fighter with greater training and genetics.
User avatar #90 to #89 - realreality (11/15/2013) [-]
I never said trained, I said tutored.Jaime squired for Lord Selmy when he was 16 when Lord Selmy recognized his talent and since Lord Selmy served under 3 kings we can safely assume that he probably helped Rhaegar with his swordsmanship. As far as the use of Ice is concerned although a lot of people believe that ice was a ceremonial weapon it is understood that the Lord of WInterfell shall carry Ice and after the death of Ned's Father and Brother it was him and therefore it can be safely assumed that Ned did use Ice in battle in his youth but only used it for executions in his old age, much like Robert, who used his war hammer in his youth with fury but was unable to do so in old age.
Although you make a good point of Robert Bararheon having an early childhood interest in warfare but he is also depicted as dumb, unable to predict attacks or read his opponents movements, all the training in the world can't make up for being dumb. While Rhaegar had a sense of his surroundings and a talent for picking things up easily and was in fact much smarter then Robert.
Another key evidence of Robert Baratheon getting lucky at the Battle of the Trident is of how Robert talks about Rhaegar during his reign, even though most people have nothing but good words for the prince of Dragonstone including Ned Stark and Jaime Lannister, Robert always makes him out to be murderous rapist, which might be signs of doubt in Robert's mind of his own shortcomings when he put his hammer against the Dragon's blade.
User avatar #95 to #90 - achillesengland (11/16/2013) [-]
I can see your point regarding Jaime and Selmy however, Rhaegar spent his childhood on Dragonstone, far from Barristan Selmy. Also the 'point' you make about the head of House Stark carrying Ice is never mentioned whether it meant in battle/warfare, if that was the case, then Lord Rickard Stark would have taken Ice to Kings Landing to compete in the trial by combat for his son's life but that was clearly not the case as otherwise I doubt Aerys would have returned it to Eddard.
Also, whilst it is implied that Robert is quite impulsive and possibly stupid, it is said he had a kind of instinct/skill in battle impying it was his forte so I doubt he would have been stupid.

Furthermore, your point regarding Robert speaking ill of Rhaegar I expect is less due to feeling inadequate but more to Robert believing that Lyanna would have changed everything for him and he quite likes to play the wounded lover who had his one true love taken away. He hates Rhaegar for 'killing' the woman who he expected to be perfect for him.
User avatar #96 to #95 - realreality (11/16/2013) [-]
Aha so but you just made my point, if Lord Selmy was anything he was a good judge of character and had an eye for talent and that's exactly why he says that Rhaegar would've made a better king than the three he served under combined. It can be assumed that Lord Selmy to some extent was impressed by Rhaegars talents, ones with the sword and the ones without it.
The point about Lord Rickard Stark not having Ice at King's Landing is invalid because he was summoned there and did not go there by his own will and he did not got there expecting a fight and thus Ice's absence can be explained but the reason why I'm sure that Ice was used in battle because a Valariyan blade that fine could never have been only for show. (Except for Widow's Wail which is a shame really)
Agreed, Robert might have had experience in battle but that was earned by fighting for a really long time and not by fighting opponents of worth.So, there's that.
As far as Robert believing that Rhaegar took away his true love is concerned I can't help but call bull on that. I mean, I get what you're saying but as a human being the emotional variables just seem a bit off. If Robert did in fact love Lyanna and absolutely believed that Lyanna loved him back he wouldn't be concerned with Rhaegar that much, he would concentrate more on Lyanna and his lost love instead of the man who took her away from him but his attitude suggests signs of crippling self doubt and that self doubt also lead him to turn the woman who actually loved him against himself.(Cersei)
User avatar #98 to #96 - achillesengland (11/16/2013) [-]
My point was that Robert likes to play the victim which is why he often speaks of Lyanna and his hatred for Rhaegar, just because he wants people to think he was in the right.

And your point of Barristan, he was undoubtedly talking about Rhaegar's other non-martial talents that would have made him a good king, Rhaegar was mentioned as a good warrior but never exceptional or as one of the greatest. Robert however was, Rhaegar just wasn't that great at fighting.

Furthermore, when Rickard was summoned to Kings Landing he could be certain there would be a trial as Brandon committed a crime, he would have also thought about which type of trial he would choose and would have taken Ice. In a battle scenario the head Stark wouldn't have taken Ice because if they died it wouldn't be likely they'd get it back, as proven by Tywin melting it down. And to recount another point, a sword that is larger than a 16 year old boy would be greatly unwieldy unless you were Gregor Clegane or another large person, whilst Eddard was never described as large or strong, but Jon Snow is supposedly very similar to Eddard and Jon is quite lean and quick not bulky and strong.
User avatar #99 to #98 - realreality (11/16/2013) [-]
Yes, Robert does like to play the victim, a trait shared by all great warriors of Westeros ? I didn't think so, therefore further proving my point that Robert was only considered a great warrior because he was well renowned to be one, not because of any special feat he had accomplished. This leads me to conclude that the Battle of the Trident might not be what people believe it to be. You know the whole history is written by the victors and all that.

Like I said that Lord Selmy was praising Rhaegar for his talents not just the martial ones. I'm in no way saying that Rhaegar was anywhere close to Lord Selmy's ability, in his prime but was he a great warrior, one matching or exceeding the martial abilities of one Robert Baratheon ? Yes, it's a great possibility.

Yes, Rickard would have thought about a trial but taking Ice wouldn't have made sense because of 2 simple reasons:
1) Rickard was too old to wield a weapon that big.
2) Using a weapon as big as Ice which was made to be used in war times in an enclosed space just doesn't make sense.

I'm sure there is an unwritten rule between warriors in the land of Westeros to return great swords if they were lost at battle out of shear respect for your enemies similar to the returning of the remains of the ones who died at war. Tywin Lannister melting down Ice was sign of disrespect, so was Mounting Grey Winds head on Robb Starks body and so was chopping up of Ned Starks body after his decapitation. Yes it's never mentioned that Ned might've been a large man but his origin being from the north and people form the north being generally large in stature which include Greatjon (Jon Umber,Who wielded a sword larger than Ice) Lord Rickard and Lord Brandon we can safely assume that even though Ned might not be large, he would've been large and strong enough to wield Ice in battle.
User avatar #100 to #99 - achillesengland (11/17/2013) [-]
Robert is renowned as a warrior due to defeating Rhaegar and countless other great warriors, such as Jon Connington and various other Lords within battle. Also because of how he proved himself in the melee at tournaments.

The Umbers are just a large family, no point is made that the Starks are too, Brandon Stark is mentioned as being larger, stronger and better looking than Eddard but not large overall. You also seem to have disregarded my point regarding Jon Snow's likeness to Eddard, which almost certainly proves that Eddard was not large enough to wield Ice and Jon Snow is not even large enough to wear a bastard sword on his hip.
User avatar #101 to #100 - realreality (11/17/2013) [-]
Excluding Rhaegar, Jon Connington might be the only notable person Robert defeated in battle and even then there were a lot of variables to be considered, for example the battle took place in a town, Stoney Sept, so Martial maneuverability would be extremely difficult so talent or skill would count for nothing, more or less and the presence of Robert's Allies and Jon Connington's decision not to burn the town down just add more variables to Robert's victory making it as Jaime would put it " Unclean". Another question can be raised here about Robert's martial judgement, I mean how could such a renowned warrior such as Robert Baratheon think that hiding out in a town, which could easily be have burnt to the ground ending his rebellion, was a good idea? but that's besides the point.

No, I would never insult you by disregarding any of your points because you do make a lot of good ones. The thing is that the only thing I remember is that it's mentioned that Jon's facial features look like Ned and are that of a typical Stark, like Arya is mentioned to resemble Lyanna and although both are described as "Lean" the word could have different meanings. Jon is around 14 years in the books and when Ned was part of Robert's rebellion he was close to his 20's so you could understand the difference between the definition of the word by examining the lean build of a 14 year old and the lean build of a 20 year old. Anyway, when it comes to Ned and when the word lean is mentioned it could be said that he was strong and muscular but not bulky and certainly not as bulky as Rickard or Jon Umber and in his prime I could surely see Ned using Ice in battle.
User avatar #102 to #101 - achillesengland (11/17/2013) [-]
I think the fact that they were fighting in a town actually gave Robert a disadvantage, as Connington would be using sword and shield with the ability to thrust however Robert would be using his warhammer and have to make large swings which may be hindered by nearby buildings and ruin any momentum he gains. Therefore he must think more about his strikes and his skill would be the only thing that allowed him to win.

Also, fair point on the age difference between Jon and Eddard and so differing descriptions, I didn't think of it in that way. However I would like to put forth another point, Robb who was described as stocky and stronger than Jon did not use a two-handed sword, which you would expect if he was planning on using Ice in battle at some point once he retrieved it. If the head Stark was expected to wield Ice in battle, you would think he would train all his life with a two-handed sword however he has not evidently.
User avatar #103 to #102 - realreality (11/18/2013) [-]
Yes that's exactly my point the fact that they were fighting in a town makes it so that they both lose maneuverability, not only Robert. Therefore, Talent or Skill would no longer be valid variables. It's like putting two people in a really small cupord, with knifes and then telling them to kill each other, the man able to thrust first would win. I'm not saying it wasn't a victory worthy of mention I'm just saying it was "unclean".

Well, we come back to age. Robb was around 14 when he's introduced, so you have to imagine that the boy wasn't yet strong enough to handle a long sword, no matter how stocky he was and that is a rule while training, that you have to be able to handle something before you're able to train with it but as a noble I'm sure Robb was trained how to use a long sword without having actually wield one, as he was trained to use a bow and arrow etc but Robb not using a long sword in battle doesn't necessarily mean that he wouldn't have done it as he grew older I guess we'll never find out now, unless G.R.R Martin decides to perform another resurrection . Plus even Ned Stark, I'm sure didn't only use Ice for every fight. I mean, in war time with Robert, Yes, Ned would've used Ice but in the town fight with Jaime I'd imagine Ned using a longer sword would be disadvantageous if anything.
User avatar #104 to #103 - achillesengland (11/18/2013) [-]
But in Stoney Sept there still would have been a reasonable amount of space as they are fighting in streets, it would not be so tight so that they can barely move but Robert would have definitely been at a disadvantage as you cannot thrust with a warhammer and even the swings would have to be more careful to make sure they do not hit other things. Showing his talent over someone who has an advantage.

Also, if you are training to use a sword all your life you can easily make training swords that are at the same proportions of height between the sword and wielder, so he would have just used a slightly smaller training sword as opposed to a full greatsword.
#105 to #104 - realreality (11/18/2013) [-]
Of course Robert would've had trouble maneuvering his hammer in the streets but Connington would've had an equal disadvantage because thrusting would leave him open to a hammer blow from above.Even though the thrust might or might not have killed Robert that hammer with that much momentum would've. The logical thing to do would be to tire Robert out, open up his guard and to land a fatal shot, which he didn't manage to do and because of Roberts limited maneuverability he wasn't able to land a fatal hammer and that's why, I think, the fight never ended in death but in Connington's escap.
A suitable great sword might be forged for the young lord but the skill he would've learned with that would never be transferable to a real great sword, like Ice. Maneuverability, an idea for the space available for thrusts and swings would be compromised and the shear weight difference between the sword would completely throw off someone who is used to a lighter sword. Then again a wooden or a dull blade might've been made to just teach the lad the two handed movements but training to fight with a great sword would need a real great sword or something equal in weight and size.
Regardless of my opinion of Robert Baratheon, his poor performance as a king and his exaggerated claims as a warrior, I really love the brotherhood between him and Ned. I mean, the Stag and the Wolf ... Just Amazing. I love the fact that they've been friends since childhood under the protection of Jon Aryyn and that even though Robert always has a set way of looking at things and everyone around him just wants to say Yes to the big man Ned always steps up and tries to help his friend realize his short comings which always leads to Robert going crazy and then realizes what his loyal friend was trying to tell him afterwards and then he's all like "Hey man you know that thing you were talking about I get it now and Ned's all like "Dude, don't even sweat it, that's what friends are for
User avatar #106 to #105 - achillesengland (11/19/2013) [-]
But Connington's longswords slash would still be applicable as a warhammer is longer than a longsword therefore Connington could have either thrusted or swung giving him more chance than Robert for killing strikes and it is only out of the sheer skill in Robert's training that he survived as if you had put someone like Gregor Clegane in a situation like that I doubt he would have the skill to win as he relies on strength.
User avatar #107 to #106 - realreality (11/20/2013) [-]
Just like I said, Connington would still be able to execute some moves, with most likely non fatal damage but all of them would lead him open to a hammer blow in an enclosed environment. If he kept on charging like he would in a battle field, he would eventually find himself cornered by the environment and that surely would've been his end. Just because he had more options than Robert it doesn't necessarily mean that all of those options were viable.
The difference between a warrior like Ser Gregor and Robert is that because of shear his shear size and strength Gregor would just attack to over whelm and over power his opponent with repeated heavy blows, not thinking about any defensive tactics or to close his openings and before the opponent has any time to react he would find The Mountain's sword through his armor and chest but a warrior like Robert would be trained well enough to know not to make a mistake like that because against Ser Gregor a skilled warrior would be just too quick to react and would be able to finish him off within seconds. Robert, I think would've kept his guard up at all times and wouldn't just rely on brute strength alone. So in comparison we can safely deduce that Robert only was able to survive that battle because of a good defensive technique not because he was a better warrior than Lord Connington.
I do however believe that in a battle between Robert and The Mountain, Robert would surely come out on top. I think the battle would go something like, both men charging at each other and locking up at which point Robert would try to show off his strength to let Ser Gregor know that he's not fighting a light weight. Ser Gregor would feel a bit baffled and would break off, getting some distance between himself and Robert. After a few clashes Robert would've easily dodged the more fatal ones of Gregor's attacks and after the big man lost his breath he would've landed a shot to the ribs or a knee cap leaving Gregor open to the final blow.
User avatar #47 to #44 - herpderpstrom (11/12/2013) [-]
Of course you are entitled to believe anything you want about the Battle of the Trident, but whatever ole' Bob's other faults might have been, he was not a coward. Robert Baratheon the first of his name, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms. Killed by a pig.
User avatar #49 to #47 - realreality (11/12/2013) [-]
I personally don't have anything against Robert Baratheon. Were his intentions noble? Yes but a smart man he was not. I just love how bad ass Rhaegar was and will always wonder what a kingdom under his rule might've been like. Must be nice.

I'm starting to like you, now
User avatar #53 to #49 - herpderpstrom (11/12/2013) [-]
Yeah Rhaegar does at first glance seem like he would have been fit to rule. On the other hand, it was unbelievably stupid to knock up the daughter to the Warden of the North, who incidentally happened to be betrothed to the Lord of the Stormlands. Especially since Rhaegar was already wed and father of two. I'm rooting for three Dragon's heads: Dany, Jon and Aegon.
User avatar #57 to #53 - realreality (11/12/2013) [-]
Love can make you do weird things just ask Cersei or Jaime. Believe me I'm rooting for three as well, I just want some part of Lyanna's and Rhaegars love to still be living.
User avatar #59 to #57 - herpderpstrom (11/12/2013) [-]
Yeah I guess. just a question out of curiosity. Who are your top 5 characters you want alive and well at the end of the series, and in which order? Mine are Dany, Jon, Arya, Tyrion and Jaime. I feel terrible for naming Jaime over Bran, but I love his redmption or whatever
User avatar #62 to #59 - realreality (11/12/2013) [-]
Mine are Arya, Tyrion, Jaime, Dany and Jon Exactly the same as yours but in a different order and I don't feel bad for not picking Bran because I never felt for the kid, he just ends up getting into more trouble then anything.
User avatar #64 to #62 - herpderpstrom (11/13/2013) [-]
Cheers. I hope Sansa dies/escapes before Littlefinger marries her, becomes lord of Harrenhall, the Vale, and Winterfell and takes over the world . It's really late where I live, so I'm gonna go to bed now. Nice talking to a fellow enthusiast!
User avatar #65 to #64 - realreality (11/13/2013) [-]
Cheers to you as well my friend and I really hope Sansa doesn't die she's the victimized character who deserves redemption/revenge and I really hope she gets it.I care about the girl but don't care about her enough to be in my top 5....still care though
User avatar #66 to #65 - realreality (11/13/2013) [-]
and goodnight as well.
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